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Username Post: POY discussion        (Topic#21196)
TheLine 
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02-19-18 02:33 PM - Post#248612    

I think it's down to 4 players: Lewis, Towns, Brodeur and Betley.

Betley has the highest WS of anyone in the league but hasn't been as good as Lewis or Brodeur in conference play.

Towns is coming on - averaging almost 20 points per game in conference play with a solid all-around game.

My feeling is that it's going to be between Lewis and Brodeur. Lewis has an edge rate-wise (.189 WS/40 vs .154 per sports-reference), Brodeur makes it up if you consider Brodeur averages more minutes per game (3.2 WS vs 3.0).

Others just out of the running:

Cannady - Was it less than 3 weeks ago when he was the favorite? Cannady and Princeton have been in a tailspin spin and I don't see a recovery in the works for either.

Morgan - The best talent on offense in the league but hasn't separated himself from the frontrunners. Isn't a top defensive player. On a weak team unlikely to make the Ivy playoffs. Don't see it happening.

Atkinson, Cambridge - Wouldn't be surprised if one of these 2 wins POY in the future. A step behind the frontrunners right now.


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
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02-19-18 03:02 PM - Post#248614    
    In response to TheLine

Atkinson? Did you mean Anderson?

Seems to me Cambridge has ROY locked up. Wasn’t Faulds the front runner? Mike James questioned Faulds ability to be an impact freshman over a year ago and has been defending Harvard’s sophomore class for the past month. Just saying.

I’m listening to his analysis of next year’s recruits.

 
TheLine 
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02-19-18 03:30 PM - Post#248616    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I meant Atkinson. He is going to make All-Ivy teams in the future.

I see he had 2 subpar games against Harvard. Not a surprise Lewis handled him, Atkinson needs to put on more muscle. When he does, look out.


 
mrjames 
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Re: POY discussion
02-19-18 03:31 PM - Post#248617    
    In response to TheLine

That's a really, really good summary of where we stand. I've been giving a little thought to this as well, and here's my thinking at the moment:

In the past, it seems that three things have held true: 1) Ivy play matters more than non-conference; 2) offense is considered more than defense and 3) how your team does (and how you help make your team better) matters.

In that vein, my All-Ivy first team comes down to:

1) Towns - a ridiculous 109 ORAT on 31% usage in Ivy play and has upped his mins load to 79%.
2) Brodeur - Silently has four KP game MVPs in Ivy play. Has also upped his usage to 24% in league play with a 107 ORAT. Has looked amazing recently.
3) Cambridge - Possibly injured this past weekend, hurting the efficiency of his production, but he's scored in double-digits in every Ivy game, and his five-game stretch earlier in the Ivy campaign would be hard for anyone to match. Also an underrated defender.
4) Lewis - Knock is that foul trouble has kept him from playing a ton of minutes (63% team mins). He's also been neutralized by some teams. But if 1st team guys are ones that force you to play your game differently to account for them, he's one of those players. Also, defense would be a big consideration here.
5) Cannady - Playing 90% of team minutes, with a 109 ORAT on a 23% usage/26% shot rate. He's had a lot of big nights, and he's one where the non-conf could help him.
6) Morgan - Three KP game MVPs in Ivy play. Typical strong, efficient production. But does Cornell really deserve a first-teamer.
7) Betley - Very good shooter and very good player. With all the great choices out there, though, I find it hard to believe that a player with an 18% usage rate (who hasn't topped 24% in ANY Ivy game) would make it. Now, if Penn wins the title, I think they'll get two first teamers and he'd be the other.
8) Gettings - 106 ORAT on 30% usage in Ivy play. Has scored over 20 in seven Ivy games ALL of which came with an ORAT over 100. But I see him as behind Morgan, and Cornell certainly isn't getting two.
9) Smith - Has been strong in Ivy play (104 ORAT on 28% usage), but much like the Cornell guys... I don't see there being a spot on the 1st team for a Columbia guy.

Round out 2nd Team/HM: Brandon Anderson, Justin Bassey (DPOY), Alex Copeland, Taylor Johnson, Myles Stephens, Quinton Adlesh

I think POY should come down to Towns and Brodeur and, at the moment, I'd feel pretty good if the outright title winner took it. If there's a tie, I think I'd lean Towns at the moment, but there's still four games to play including a spotlight one at Penn next weekend.

 
PennFan10 
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02-19-18 03:42 PM - Post#248620    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
Atkinson? Did you mean Anderson?

Seems to me Cambridge has ROY locked up. Wasn’t Faulds the front runner? Mike James questioned Faulds ability to be an impact freshman over a year ago and has been defending Harvard’s sophomore class for the past month. Just saying.

I’m listening to his analysis of next year’s recruits.



I like Mike's analysis as much as anyone but if we are counting wins on the prediction front there are plenty of misses as well. So let's be fair. He missed on Penn this year, and has downplayed Mike Wang's recruitment at Penn, despite the fact he was the top target of the coaching staff most of the year. So let's revisit this next year.

I also don't understand the need for all the defensiveness about the soph class at H.


 
PennFan10 
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Re: POY discussion
02-19-18 03:43 PM - Post#248621    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
That's a really, really good summary of where we stand. I've been giving a little thought to this as well, and here's my thinking at the moment:

In the past, it seems that three things have held true: 1) Ivy play matters more than non-conference; 2) offense is considered more than defense and 3) how your team does (and how you help make your team better) matters.

In that vein, my All-Ivy first team comes down to:

1) Towns - a ridiculous 109 ORAT on 31% usage in Ivy play and has upped his mins load to 79%.
2) Brodeur - Silently has four KP game MVPs in Ivy play. Has also upped his usage to 24% in league play with a 107 ORAT. Has looked amazing recently.
3) Cambridge - Possibly injured this past weekend, hurting the efficiency of his production, but he's scored in double-digits in every Ivy game, and his five-game stretch earlier in the Ivy campaign would be hard for anyone to match. Also an underrated defender.
4) Lewis - Knock is that foul trouble has kept him from playing a ton of minutes (63% team mins). He's also been neutralized by some teams. But if 1st team guys are ones that force you to play your game differently to account for them, he's one of those players. Also, defense would be a big consideration here.
5) Cannady - Playing 90% of team minutes, with a 109 ORAT on a 23% usage/26% shot rate. He's had a lot of big nights, and he's one where the non-conf could help him.
6) Morgan - Three KP game MVPs in Ivy play. Typical strong, efficient production. But does Cornell really deserve a first-teamer.
7) Betley - Very good shooter and very good player. With all the great choices out there, though, I find it hard to believe that a player with an 18% usage rate (who hasn't topped 24% in ANY Ivy game) would make it. Now, if Penn wins the title, I think they'll get two first teamers and he'd be the other.
8) Gettings - 106 ORAT on 30% usage in Ivy play. Has scored over 20 in seven Ivy games ALL of which came with an ORAT over 100. But I see him as behind Morgan, and Cornell certainly isn't getting two.
9) Smith - Has been strong in Ivy play (104 ORAT on 28% usage), but much like the Cornell guys... I don't see there being a spot on the 1st team for a Columbia guy.

Round out 2nd Team/HM: Brandon Anderson, Justin Bassey (DPOY), Alex Copeland, Taylor Johnson, Myles Stephens, Quinton Adlesh

I think POY should come down to Towns and Brodeur and, at the moment, I'd feel pretty good if the outright title winner took it. If there's a tie, I think I'd lean Towns at the moment, but there's still four games to play including a spotlight one at Penn next weekend.



This is a great summary. This seems right to me.

I would pick Towns today, simply because he has been the most consistent.


 
Jeff2sf 
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POY discussion
02-19-18 04:09 PM - Post#248624    
    In response to PennFan10

My strong suspicion, and I went and looked at Nov.7 predictions twitter thread but couldn't find efficiency/pomeroy, is that Mike didn't miss on Penn so much as Mike missed on Princeton (sucking), Yale(injuries), Harvard (injuries/um, late blooming).

I would imagine his KenPom was right around there.

I pretty much nailed Penn as I said a KenPom between 120-130 and they're at 135.

I didn't realize they were playing the Little Sisters of the Poor both Conf and Non-Conf which shifted the narrative and the wins around. But yeah, I understood the basic strength of the team.

 
Silver Maple 
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02-19-18 04:15 PM - Post#248625    
    In response to Jeff2sf

At this point in the season, I'd have to agree on taking Towns over Brodeur. It's close, but, as noted above, Towns has been a bit more consistent. However there are four games to go (is the team chosen before or after the IL Tournament?), including a H/Pe rematch this Saturday. How that game goes will be a key data point.

On a closely related note, I'm going to nominate Caleb Wood for the nonexistent 6th man award. Has any other bench player meant as much for his team?

 
mrjames 
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02-19-18 04:22 PM - Post#248626    
    In response to Silver Maple

Minutes and uneven production will kill him, but I gave him a long look at 2nd team/HM. The slow Ivy start and the stinker weekend at Dartmouth/Harvard is probably too much to overcome to get votes. In the realm of offense/defense too, he's not gonna get a lot of points for defense...

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
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02-19-18 04:49 PM - Post#248631    
    In response to mrjames

Don’t disagree with anyone, but utilizing FlyFi with not much else to do st 36,000 ft I found that Harvard was +18 vs EACH of Brown and Yale with Lewis in the lineup but -11 (Brown) and -3 (Yale) without him.

Lewis has to be first team Ivy and if he repeats his performance against Penn could press Towns and Betley for POY.

Wish +/- was available to evaluate more broadly.

 
PennFan10 
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Re: POY discussion
02-19-18 04:51 PM - Post#248632    
    In response to Jeff2sf

Again, if we want to count up the wins/losses on the prediction front (I do not) there are plenty of both for Mike J, Me, you, most everyone else who has put any kind of projection on here. I am certain the list of predictions is long and likely correlates to the number of posts someone has. I am simply pointing out that we should be cautious to cherry pick the ones that make us look good, lest we be found out.....

 
PennFan10 
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02-19-18 04:53 PM - Post#248633    
    In response to PennFan10

As for predictions, I would be very surprised if Lewis repeats his performance this weekend. I would not be surprised if Towns' numbers improve from the first matchup.

 
SomeGuy 
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Re: POY discussion
02-19-18 04:59 PM - Post#248636    
    In response to mrjames

Tend to agree on the top four. However, for the fifth guy, I don’t think you can say Cornell or Columbia doesn’t deserve a first teamer. Somebody has to get the fifth guy. If the tournament started today, Cornell would be there. So between Morgan, Smith, Cannady, Cambridge, etc., it remains to be seen whether there will be distinguishable team performance to weight their contributions. If it was today, I’d go with the guy with the best numbers and ignore team.

 
mrjames 
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Re: POY discussion
02-19-18 05:15 PM - Post#248637    
    In response to PennFan10

To be fair, any success I have in predicting recruit performance isn’t mine to claim. Folks around the league are very good at knowing which incoming players can play and which can’t or at least won’t immediately. To the extent I can aggregate and share what I’m hearing, that makes up the bulk of any “predictions” about incoming players (aside from my team-level models which are decent, but obviously don’t tell you anything about particular players). I’m not predicting performance based on highlight reels or anything that would be my scouting opinion, which is pretty worthless.

As for the other stuff, that’s mostly borrowed too. I stopped doing any proprietary work a few years back (except for modest code extensions) and now just pass along views of the fundamental empirical work others have performed. Two kids make it pretty difficult to do any of the hard work that is necessary to get an edge over Vegas-type lines.

 
Jeff2sf 
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02-19-18 05:17 PM - Post#248639    
    In response to mrjames

so what were your efficiency/kenpom predictions for the ivy?

 
SomeGuy 
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02-19-18 05:55 PM - Post#248647    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Mike said Oni was a player to watch coming in last year as well. With Cambridge, That’s two straight under the radar guys he more or less called. I gave him a bit of a hard time last week about Djuricic, who I think he over-hyped a bit, but Mike has the best idea of who will be an impact recruit of any of us who are posting our thoughts on the board, and I don’t think it is very close.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t question and push back and add information and theories. If Mike’s info on Faulds isn’t com8ng from people around the Col7mbia program, it could be colored by why Harvard or someone else passed on him, or why they don’t think he’s a fit, rather than what the Columbia staff thinks. Ultimately whether a guy is a fit is best known by the staff that is bringing him in. But as fans of our teams, we might not be doing the team or the player any favors by saying Faulds is a 4 star recruit coming to dominate from day one if the reality is that he will be a solid role player.

 
cc66 
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02-19-18 06:24 PM - Post#248652    
    In response to SomeGuy

Meisner leads the lead in rebounds and should be considered for the second team.

Re Faulds, any verdict is premature. Although Columbia fans were clearly wrong about him as a ROY candidate, centers who often have to grow into their body develop more slowly. We'll have a better sense of his long-term potential if his game matures between now and next fall.

 
SomeGuy 
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02-19-18 06:42 PM - Post#248654    
    In response to cc66

Sorry — just meant this year on Faulds.

 
TheLine 
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02-19-18 07:02 PM - Post#248657    
    In response to SomeGuy

I think Faulds will turn out fine - skills, athleticism, and basketball instincts are there though they need some refining.

I like Djuricic.


 
penn nation 
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POY discussion
02-19-18 07:18 PM - Post#248660    
    In response to TheLine

I think Max merits consideration for a lower tier honor. His improvement from last year is a key reason for Penn's improved play.

He's our 2nd leading rebounder, 3rd leading assists man, in a virtual tie for 5th in scoring, and plays solid D to boot.

Edited by penn nation on 02-19-18 07:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
TheLine 
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02-19-18 08:00 PM - Post#248663    
    In response to penn nation

I'm not seeing it.

If any other Penn player deserves consideration it's Darnell Foreman. He has been that good on defense. He's also top 10 in the league in win shares. But I agree with Mike's list.

I started the thread to see if there was agreement on the finalists for POY in a year where it has been difficult to determine who the contenders were going to be. Sounds like there is. 4 games left, there's a path for any of them to earn it IMO.


 
whitakk 
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02-20-18 01:00 AM - Post#248679    
    In response to TheLine

I would take Towns today but I don't have good feel for how the coaches will see it. Pretty crazy that the 4-5 leading candidates may all be sophomores or freshmen depending on your view.

Barring something crazy the other awards are probably locked up already though:

ROY - Cambridge
DPOY - sounds like Bassey (though I might take Lewis personally)
COY - whoever wins Saturday?

 
TheLine 
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02-20-18 11:21 AM - Post#248695    
    In response to whitakk

Harvard and Penn are both selfless teams and that's also making it difficult.

A possible scenario - Brodeur and Lewis both play well for the next 2 weekends, Brodeur takes POY after Penn wins on Saturday, Lewis takes DPOY. Or maybe vice-versa.



 
SomeGuy 
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Re: POY discussion
02-20-18 03:15 PM - Post#248709    
    In response to mrjames

Looked at this a little more. Today, I think first team would (and should) be Lewis, Brodeur, Betley, Towns, and Morgan. I think Morgan has been better than Cambridge and Cannady, and actually means more to his team to boot.

In regard to guys who will be helped by OOC performance, I think Miye Oni is another name who might sneak on there, at least as HM.

 
mrjames 
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02-20-18 07:21 PM - Post#248721    
    In response to TheLine

Not for nothing, but another real issue in selecting what is generally an offense-first award is that, unless something changes in a pretty big way over the final two weekends, the league champ will have a bigger gap to the top team’s league ORAT than we’ve seen this decade. And no matter what, the league champ will have a pretty awful offense nationally.

 
PennFan10 
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Re: POY discussion
02-22-18 02:39 PM - Post#248899    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
That's a really, really good summary of where we stand. I've been giving a little thought to this as well, and here's my thinking at the moment:

In the past, it seems that three things have held true: 1) Ivy play matters more than non-conference; 2) offense is considered more than defense and 3) how your team does (and how you help make your team better) matters.





I am interested in how you reconcile #1 and #2 with the discussion from the Dartmouth board. EB last year averaged a double double on somewhere near 30% usage if I am reading that right and you have said he didn't make 1st Team because of defense? If these are indeed the criteria, that still represents one of the biggest misses in recent history.


 
somedartmouthstudent2 
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Re: POY discussion
02-22-18 03:02 PM - Post#248904    
    In response to PennFan10

I will second that question.

 
SomeGuy 
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Re: POY discussion
02-22-18 03:07 PM - Post#248905    
    In response to PennFan10

I don’t see EB’s treatment as outside of this. He made 2nd team because of offense, not defense. (3) was probably most important to him not making first team — only one player did not come from the top two teams. I think being a senior matters too, and that was part of it for Speith, the one fist teamer from a losing team.

 
PennFan10 
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POY discussion
02-22-18 03:12 PM - Post#248906    
    In response to SomeGuy

First, in my view he was an average defender and there were some very bad defenders in the league, and Mr James has repeatedly pointed out defense is much more about team than individual. So you can't say its "...about offense, but defense matters, but defense is team more than individual, but he was terrible on defense"..., and still have a coherent argument.

Has their ever been a guy who averaged a double double over the course of a season and not been 1st team?

Edited by PennFan10 on 02-22-18 03:15 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mrjames 
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02-22-18 03:16 PM - Post#248907    
    In response to SomeGuy

I said that offense is considered more than defense, not that offense is considered alone. If you’re seen as elite defensively, you can potentially make an All-Ivy team of some sort, even if your offensive numbers are middling (see: Justin Bassey, potentially this season). At the same time, if you’re perceived as a big enough minus defensively, that can start to impact your All-Ivy case, even if your offensive numbers are good.

Agree with SomeGuy, though. While I haven’t really heard offensive rating ever thrown out there when discussing potential All-Ivy players, staffs will use code phrases like: “he makes sure he gets his” or “yeah, but how many shots” that essentially mean the same thing. So, efficiency can come up, I just don’t think anything on the offensive end was why he didn’t get first team last year.

 
Silver Maple 
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02-22-18 03:23 PM - Post#248909    
    In response to mrjames

I think a major component of POY voting is the eye test. Those votes are cast by people who watch a lot of Ivy games, both in person and via video. While I'm sure they're looking closely at the numbers, subjective criteria like demeanor, perceived effort, intensity, team-first mentality, etc. also clearly play a role. And there's nothing wrong with that being part of what goes into the decision-making process. I imagine that a lot of coaches watched Boudreaux play for two years and, while acknowledging his immense talent, also noticed that he wasn't doing a lot of those things that make teams win.

 
palestra38 
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02-22-18 03:27 PM - Post#248912    
    In response to Silver Maple

Well, as an eye test guy, there is no way on earth if I had a vote I would not have voted for Boudreaux last year

 
Silver Maple 
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02-22-18 03:33 PM - Post#248913    
    In response to palestra38

Perhaps, but remember that the guys who get a vote are watching at a level of detail that none of us can match. They're going to see things that we'd never notice. They'll also be able to identify things that are conspicuous in their absence.

 
Chip Bayers 
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02-22-18 03:39 PM - Post#248914    
    In response to Silver Maple

It’s been awhile, but Sydney Johnson won Ivy POY as a defense-first player.


 
SomeGuy 
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02-22-18 03:40 PM - Post#248915    
    In response to Silver Maple

Not saying anything similar was the case here, but I do recall an opposing coach once saying he would never vote for Penn’s Michael Jordan for all-Ivy. So there may be times where demeanor has an impact, right or wrong. Of course, Mike was unanimous as a senior, so that coach either changed his mind or was fired.

 
palestra38 
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02-22-18 03:41 PM - Post#248916    
    In response to Silver Maple

True---they don't see only Boudreaux kicking Penn's butt every which way at the Palestra.

 
Silver Maple 
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02-22-18 03:44 PM - Post#248917    
    In response to Chip Bayers

  • Chip Bayers Said:
It’s been awhile, but Sydney Johnson won Ivy POY as a defense-first player.



I'd say that Ibby Jaaber did as well.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
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Re: POY discussion
02-22-18 03:56 PM - Post#248920    
    In response to PennFan10

In response to your question about double doubles:

In 2015-16 Zena averaged 13.1ppg and 9.9rbs. Made second team All Ivy.


 
PennFan10 
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02-22-18 04:10 PM - Post#248921    
    In response to mrjames

  • mrjames Said:
I said that offense is considered more than defense, not that offense is considered alone. If you’re seen as elite defensively, you can potentially make an All-Ivy team of some sort, even if your offensive numbers are middling (see: Justin Bassey, potentially this season). At the same time, if you’re perceived as a big enough minus defensively, that can start to impact your All-Ivy case, even if your offensive numbers are good.

Agree with SomeGuy, though. While I haven’t really heard offensive rating ever thrown out there when discussing potential All-Ivy players, staffs will use code phrases like: “he makes sure he gets his” or “yeah, but how many shots” that essentially mean the same thing. So, efficiency can come up, I just don’t think anything on the offensive end was why he didn’t get first team last year.



Again, this doesn't pass my sniff test. Is it about defense or isn't it? If defense is a team effort can you get penalized for individual effort on D (both good and bad?). There is more to this than EB being a poor defender. Just like there is more to him not playing that we haven't heard either.

I'll say it again: EB not being on the 1st team was the biggest miss I have seen in my history w ILBB. And nothing mentioned here explains it.


 
PennFan10 
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Re: POY discussion
02-22-18 04:11 PM - Post#248922    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
In response to your question about double doubles:

In 2015-16 Zena averaged 13.1ppg and 9.9rbs. Made second team All Ivy.




Not really a double double is it?

And I think Cedric Guacamole and The player who left also had double digit pts and 9.something RBs that year.

I looked and Greg Mongano from Yale is the only player to actually have a double double season in 2010-11 and was first team. He had a Zena (9.7 rbs) the next year and was also first team


Edited by PennFan10 on 02-22-18 04:16 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mrjames 
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02-22-18 04:31 PM - Post#248923    
    In response to PennFan10

I guess the simple answer you’re looking for is that yes, defense matters. I don’t see how that’s inconsistent with this being an offense-first award, though. I don’t believe Boudreaux was seen around the league as an average defender, FWIW.

 
Jeff2sf 
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02-22-18 04:32 PM - Post#248924    
    In response to PennFan10

Yes it was a 31% usage but it was a 99 ORAT. That's Max Rothschild level bad... without Max's defense.

I just think you're struggling with the counting stats nature of this. USUALLY, averaging a double double denotes good offense. But sometimes it don't.

 
PennFan10 
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02-22-18 04:34 PM - Post#248925    
    In response to Jeff2sf

That's fair. I remain skeptical yet contemplative.

 
PennFan10 
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02-22-18 04:36 PM - Post#248926    
    In response to PennFan10

And I don't believe he was seen around the league as horrible a defender as you make him out to be, FWIW.

 
SomeGuy 
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02-22-18 04:40 PM - Post#248927    
    In response to Jeff2sf

I think in a sense it is worse. Once you are on the negative side of average in ORAT, a higher usage rate is arguably worse for your team.

 
SomeGuy 
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02-22-18 04:47 PM - Post#248929    
    In response to PennFan10

Kind of curious what you are suggesting here. It passes the sniff test for me perhaps because I had predicted it, but that prediction was based on metrics, winning team bias (my own and the league’s), and senior bias. I don’t know of anything more to the story. What do you think went on?

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 05:18 PM - Post#248934    
    In response to SomeGuy

because i like conspiracy theories and I'm also just curious... is there supposed to be some lobbying by your coach (either publicly or behind the scenes) that wasn't done because (perceived) no one liked him?

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 05:33 PM - Post#248935    
    In response to Jeff2sf

I think there was a dissenter in the grassy knoll.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 05:46 PM - Post#248936    
    In response to PennFan10

well from what you know of how such a process is supposed to work, pf10, is donahue calling up coaches behind the scenes to push betley/brodeur?

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 05:50 PM - Post#248937    
    In response to PennFan10

Seriously though, and this is complete speculation, but the only thing that would definitively derail someone's All Conference selection is if their own coach said something about them or didn't strongly advocate for them. I have no idea if that happened but it's a good story....

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 05:54 PM - Post#248938    
    In response to PennFan10

I am pretty sure the process involves each coach nominating who he wants as All Ivy and then explaining why he believes that. So, for example, if Harvard gets the DPOY award this year because they end up with the top defense, the coaches are going to want to know who Amaker believes is his best defender. If he nominates Bassey over Chris Lewis I am certain that will dictate how the votes go (or visa versa). For POY last year I think they wanted to know who Mitch thought was his best candidate

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 05:58 PM - Post#248939    
    In response to PennFan10

they get on a conference call? i had no idea.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 06:16 PM - Post#248946    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
Yes it was a 31% usage but it was a 99 ORAT. That's Max Rothschild level bad... without Max's defense.

I just think you're struggling with the counting stats nature of this. USUALLY, averaging a double double denotes good offense. But sometimes it don't.




This is for the Penn board in part but since you posted it here, isn't Max's ORAT really driven by his turnover rate, which has been high? And he handles the ball much more than most bigs in Penn's offense (the offense goes through the 5). Save that I think his ORAT would be pretty good.

I also don't think a 100 ORAT (rounding up as a Penn fan) is terrible. Maybe it is for a high usage guy, but Max is not one of those.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 09:19 PM - Post#248956    
    In response to PennFan10

I think Jeff just likes to push at the conventional wisdom on the board in regard to Max (and I think we push his buttons when we get overly optimistic). Max IMO is at or above the level you need to be at to be a contributor on offense on a good Ivy team.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
POY discussion
02-22-18 09:56 PM - Post#248964    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
I think Jeff just likes to push at the conventional wisdom on the board in regard to Max (and I think we push his buttons when we get overly optimistic). Max IMO is at or above the level you need to be at to be a contributor on offense on a good Ivy team.



Way above. He is our #2 assists man and #2 offensive boards man in addition to being #3 on the team in trips to the line. All this while being #5 on the team in minutes played.


Edited by penn nation on 02-22-18 09:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: POY discussion
02-23-18 07:19 AM - Post#248976    
    In response to penn nation

Problem is with number (3)--he is not a good FT shooter.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
02-23-18 10:35 AM - Post#248994    
    In response to palestra38

That's true, and he needs to work his butt off to fix that over the summer, and it definitely pulls his various metrics down. That said, there's value in getting to the line beyond the points you score (or don't) there.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
02-23-18 11:20 AM - Post#249001    
    In response to Silver Maple

He is better than the team average, which isn't saying much. And he has hit some key FT's down the stretch this season (and missed a couple--Cornell last Sat).

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
02-23-18 11:36 AM - Post#249005    
    In response to PennFan10

If that is the case, wouldn’t it mean McLaughlin recommended Boudreaux?

I understand how a player could view not making first team as a snub. I don’t really understand the suggestion that it ties to his transfer, though, unless there is a Dartmouth angle. Lack of respect from opponents may be annoying, but if anything it seems like a reason to stay, not a reason to transfer.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
02-25-18 08:46 AM - Post#249436    
    In response to SomeGuy

After last night I think AJ put himself in the lead for POY. If it's Towns instead then I won't complain (as long as Penn wins out).


 
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