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Username Post: POY discussion        (Topic#21196)
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
02-22-18 04:31 PM - Post#248923    
    In response to PennFan10

I guess the simple answer you’re looking for is that yes, defense matters. I don’t see how that’s inconsistent with this being an offense-first award, though. I don’t believe Boudreaux was seen around the league as an average defender, FWIW.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 04:32 PM - Post#248924    
    In response to PennFan10

Yes it was a 31% usage but it was a 99 ORAT. That's Max Rothschild level bad... without Max's defense.

I just think you're struggling with the counting stats nature of this. USUALLY, averaging a double double denotes good offense. But sometimes it don't.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 04:34 PM - Post#248925    
    In response to Jeff2sf

That's fair. I remain skeptical yet contemplative.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 04:36 PM - Post#248926    
    In response to PennFan10

And I don't believe he was seen around the league as horrible a defender as you make him out to be, FWIW.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 04:40 PM - Post#248927    
    In response to Jeff2sf

I think in a sense it is worse. Once you are on the negative side of average in ORAT, a higher usage rate is arguably worse for your team.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 04:47 PM - Post#248929    
    In response to PennFan10

Kind of curious what you are suggesting here. It passes the sniff test for me perhaps because I had predicted it, but that prediction was based on metrics, winning team bias (my own and the league’s), and senior bias. I don’t know of anything more to the story. What do you think went on?

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 05:18 PM - Post#248934    
    In response to SomeGuy

because i like conspiracy theories and I'm also just curious... is there supposed to be some lobbying by your coach (either publicly or behind the scenes) that wasn't done because (perceived) no one liked him?

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 05:33 PM - Post#248935    
    In response to Jeff2sf

I think there was a dissenter in the grassy knoll.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 05:46 PM - Post#248936    
    In response to PennFan10

well from what you know of how such a process is supposed to work, pf10, is donahue calling up coaches behind the scenes to push betley/brodeur?

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 05:50 PM - Post#248937    
    In response to PennFan10

Seriously though, and this is complete speculation, but the only thing that would definitively derail someone's All Conference selection is if their own coach said something about them or didn't strongly advocate for them. I have no idea if that happened but it's a good story....

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 05:54 PM - Post#248938    
    In response to PennFan10

I am pretty sure the process involves each coach nominating who he wants as All Ivy and then explaining why he believes that. So, for example, if Harvard gets the DPOY award this year because they end up with the top defense, the coaches are going to want to know who Amaker believes is his best defender. If he nominates Bassey over Chris Lewis I am certain that will dictate how the votes go (or visa versa). For POY last year I think they wanted to know who Mitch thought was his best candidate

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 4466

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 05:58 PM - Post#248939    
    In response to PennFan10

they get on a conference call? i had no idea.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-22-18 06:16 PM - Post#248946    
    In response to Jeff2sf

  • Jeff2sf Said:
Yes it was a 31% usage but it was a 99 ORAT. That's Max Rothschild level bad... without Max's defense.

I just think you're struggling with the counting stats nature of this. USUALLY, averaging a double double denotes good offense. But sometimes it don't.




This is for the Penn board in part but since you posted it here, isn't Max's ORAT really driven by his turnover rate, which has been high? And he handles the ball much more than most bigs in Penn's offense (the offense goes through the 5). Save that I think his ORAT would be pretty good.

I also don't think a 100 ORAT (rounding up as a Penn fan) is terrible. Maybe it is for a high usage guy, but Max is not one of those.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
02-22-18 09:19 PM - Post#248956    
    In response to PennFan10

I think Jeff just likes to push at the conventional wisdom on the board in regard to Max (and I think we push his buttons when we get overly optimistic). Max IMO is at or above the level you need to be at to be a contributor on offense on a good Ivy team.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
POY discussion
02-22-18 09:56 PM - Post#248964    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
I think Jeff just likes to push at the conventional wisdom on the board in regard to Max (and I think we push his buttons when we get overly optimistic). Max IMO is at or above the level you need to be at to be a contributor on offense on a good Ivy team.



Way above. He is our #2 assists man and #2 offensive boards man in addition to being #3 on the team in trips to the line. All this while being #5 on the team in minutes played.


Edited by penn nation on 02-22-18 09:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: POY discussion
02-23-18 07:19 AM - Post#248976    
    In response to penn nation

Problem is with number (3)--he is not a good FT shooter.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
02-23-18 10:35 AM - Post#248994    
    In response to palestra38

That's true, and he needs to work his butt off to fix that over the summer, and it definitely pulls his various metrics down. That said, there's value in getting to the line beyond the points you score (or don't) there.

 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
02-23-18 11:20 AM - Post#249001    
    In response to Silver Maple

He is better than the team average, which isn't saying much. And he has hit some key FT's down the stretch this season (and missed a couple--Cornell last Sat).

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
02-23-18 11:36 AM - Post#249005    
    In response to PennFan10

If that is the case, wouldn’t it mean McLaughlin recommended Boudreaux?

I understand how a player could view not making first team as a snub. I don’t really understand the suggestion that it ties to his transfer, though, unless there is a Dartmouth angle. Lack of respect from opponents may be annoying, but if anything it seems like a reason to stay, not a reason to transfer.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
02-25-18 08:46 AM - Post#249436    
    In response to SomeGuy

After last night I think AJ put himself in the lead for POY. If it's Towns instead then I won't complain (as long as Penn wins out).


 
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