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Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



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Username Post: One foot in the grave        (Topic#21205)
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1479
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 67
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
02-23-18 12:43 PM - Post#249015    
    In response to SRP

Spieglein Spieglein an der Wand.....

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 881
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
One foot in the grave
02-23-18 02:53 PM - Post#249032    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Audley

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 429

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: One foot in the grave
02-23-18 03:30 PM - Post#249038    
    In response to sparman

  • sparman Said:
So? .500 teams don't belong.



There are plenty of .500 (and worse) teams that made an appearance in Dayton.

Some actually advanced beyond that. See, e.g., Holy Cross (2016).

Edited by Go Green on 02-23-18 03:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1479
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 67
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: One foot in the grave
02-23-18 04:18 PM - Post#249043    
    In response to sparman

  • sparman Said:


I'm impressed. I should have known her name.

 
weinhauers_ghost 
PhD Student
Posts: 1027

Age: 58
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
02-24-18 08:15 AM - Post#249148    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

Both feet in the grave.

We brought shovels. Please allow us to do the honors.

 
Tiger84 
Freshman
Posts: 37

Age: 56
Reg: 03-06-17
One foot in the grave
02-25-18 02:06 AM - Post#249433    
    In response to weinhauers_ghost

Like they said in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, they’re not dead yet.

One scenario follows. There may be others but I haven’t worked through the tiebreakers.

Princeton sweeps Brown and Yale.

Harvard and Dartmouth both sweep the NY teams. (*Or Harvard sweeps and Dartmouth beats Columbia)

Princeton would finish 6-8, the C’s at 5-9*, Brown at either 4-10 or 5-9 depending on if they beat Penn.

I am pretty sure Princeton would lose all tiebreakers with Columbia.

*If Cornell beats Harvard they’d have the tiebreak over Princeton with that win. If they lost to Harvard but beat Dartmouth, I think Princeton would have the tiebreak based on a sweep of Yale.

So of the 8 remaining games, 5 would have to break right; Penn-Yale, Penn-Brown and Cornell-Dartmouth would be irrelevant.

Odds are low. But stranger things have happened (often) in this league.

Anyone disagree with my math?

Edited by Tiger84 on 02-25-18 02:24 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 881
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
Re: One foot in the grave
02-25-18 11:08 AM - Post#249463    
    In response to Tiger84

  • Go Green Said:
There are plenty of .500 (and worse) teams that made an appearance in Dayton.


I understand that's the Dartmouth mind set.

  • Tiger84 Said:
Anyone disagree with my math?


Only the part that has Tigers winning two on the road.

I am surprised, actually amazed, at how bad a team apparently has to be to be officially out of it going into the last weekend.

 
whitakk 
Junior
Posts: 214

Age: 27
Reg: 11-11-14
02-25-18 11:10 AM - Post#249464    
    In response to Tiger84

You have it right. Princeton needs to sweep, needs Columbia to be swept and needs Cornell to lose at Harvard.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 792

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: One foot in the grave
02-25-18 12:38 PM - Post#249473    
    In response to sparman

Some IvyMadness proponents argued that the 3rd or 4th seeds in most years would be reasonably competitive vs the IL regular season winner. This year, the league has 2 teams that can compete at the Big Dance in all likelihood. 3rd or 4th seeds will be 16 seeds at ncaa tournament and will get blown out. In fairness, penn will best be a 14 seed - Harvard 15 seed. Down year for IL.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4605

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: One foot in the grave
02-25-18 01:42 PM - Post#249482    
    In response to bradley

Yes, although the bunching in the middle of pomeroy means that 3rd and 4th will be a lot closer to #1 than last year. So on court in the Ivy tournament, there is an even better chance of competitive games than last year (when the games were competitive). There also won’t be as much of a seeding difference as there would have been last year with an upset. You are probably right about likely seedlings, but I could see Penn as a 15 and Harvard as a 16 if things broke badly for the league. Curious whether Princeton or Yale could help their profiles by winning out, too. Anybody else would be a 16 for sure.

To the point i’ve Made in the past about how more games added by a tourney may provide more information that better determines the league winner and NCAA rep, that will l8kely be true if Harvard or Penn wins the tournament, regardless of who gets the #1 Seed. It probably will not be true if 3 or 4 wins, but to me that’s what makes it fun.

Edited by SomeGuy on 02-25-18 01:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3521

Reg: 02-04-06
02-25-18 04:19 PM - Post#249512    
    In response to SomeGuy

It's terrible that last night's Harvard-Penn game was not the focal point of attention it should have been, but more of a season footnote. Instead we'll have endless discussion of arcane tie-breakers involving mediocre-to-bad teams. Ivy fever--catch it and die!

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11368

Reg: 12-02-04
One foot in the grave
02-25-18 04:22 PM - Post#249513    
    In response to SRP

6500 fans would disagree. I'm guessing it has been a very long time since we've seen that kind of crowd for a regular season non Big 5 Penn game.

Edited by penn nation on 02-25-18 04:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2272

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: One foot in the grave
02-25-18 04:38 PM - Post#249515    
    In response to penn nation

All that for a #1 seed? I wonder how many Penn fans are concerned about it all going up in smoke at the hands of a hot #4 seed before a silent crowd at the Palestra? Of course, you would still be the real Champ -- with an NIT bid . Meanwhile, the tournament "winner" with its bid may suffer the humiliation of a playin game for the privilege of dancing with a #1 seed. My, we've come a long way with our tournament.

Edited by Tiger69 on 02-25-18 04:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11368

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: One foot in the grave
02-25-18 04:43 PM - Post#249517    
    In response to Tiger69

All I care about is a chance to play beyond the IL tourney. That tourney will be a true crapshoot.

So yes, the #1 position is very important--not so much for the tourney, but for knowing that at minimum they will be playing after that weekend no matter what.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3236

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
02-25-18 04:45 PM - Post#249518    
    In response to penn nation

The #1 spot also means we can hoist another Ivy Champs banner to the Palestra rafters, regardless of what happens in the conference tournament. That definitely means a lot to me, and I'll bet it means a lot to the players as well.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 429

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: One foot in the grave
02-25-18 05:02 PM - Post#249519    
    In response to Tiger69

  • Tiger69 Said:
Meanwhile, the tournament "winner" with its bid may suffer the humiliation of a playin game for the privilege of dancing with a #1 seed. My, we've come a long way with our tournament.



If this is a "humiliated" team, I wonder what a proud and excited team looks like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZCxJvkJ3dc

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3521

Reg: 02-04-06
02-25-18 05:06 PM - Post#249520    
    In response to Silver Maple

The issue of attention isn't about the fans of the top contenders--of course they're excited about winning, especially when there's been a drought. It's the conversation and coverage around and outside the league that's the problem. Sportscenter didn't even mention the game, as they used to do pre-folly for similar showdowns. Commentators fill dead time spooling out endless scenarios about how the poor-record teams might sneak in, but no time debating whether Harvard is better than Penn. Don't be surprised if Matt Morgan and Desmond Cambridge get more publicity and discussion over the remainder of the season than Towns or Brodeur.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 792

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
02-26-18 08:50 AM - Post#249550    
    In response to SRP

You make a valid point but to me, the simple answer to all of the discussion is that Penn earned the right to go to the Big Dance based on their cumulative play over the course of the season if they close it out next weekend. If not the NCAA bid should have gone to the playoff winner at a neutral site if Harvard and Penn tie. Yale and whoever is the 4th seed simply have not earned the right to go if not for IvyMadness. With all that said, Penn probably has less than a 50% chance to go to the Big Dance based on playing at the IL Tournament.

I remember feeling no elation that the Tigers won the IL Tournament only that they survived. The pride was that they won the IL regular season crown, finished 16-0 and scared the daylights out of ND after being down by double digits in the 2nd half.

IvyMadness is a gimmick. The absolute worst argument is that other conferences do it -- I think that was the argument used by steroid users and probably will be an argument as to who pays off college BB players.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4605

Reg: 11-22-04
02-26-18 10:26 AM - Post#249557    
    In response to bradley

First, both of those things are illegal, against the rules, and morally wrong. Second, I would argue that the reason to do those things is often to achieve an advantage rather than just to keep up — which actually makes them more akin to not having a tournament so as to send a better representative than everyone else does.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18839

Reg: 11-21-04
One foot in the grave
02-26-18 10:36 AM - Post#249558    
    In response to SomeGuy

I agree on the drugs--not the payments. Let's face it, there is tremendous market value to a potential NBA caliber basketball player, and the "mining" to realize that potential starts at about 10-11 years old. The entire AAU system is a feeder system in which investments are made and they have to be repaid. Moreover, while the coaches get millions to produce winning programs, the players who are not there for a college academic education essentially get nothing. So it isn't a case like PEDs where that is an attempt to gain advantage as much as it is our capitalist system at work. Clearly, the right thing to do would be to get colleges out of the pro basketball business, but that isn't about to happen. But there really is nothing "wrong" (as you put it--legally or morally) about both players's families and the AAU personnel who invest in these players wanting to be paid. The hypocrisy is very hard to take---but if Miller of Arizona was willing to pay $100K for a player, that's because the bidding was at that level, not because he's trying to gain an unfair advantage.

 
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