PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-26-18 12:59 AM - Post#249548
http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/02/penn- mens-bas...
DP article arguing for SD for COY. I really think this is a done deal no matter the remaining result no? Is there even a close 2nd?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-26-18 11:18 AM - Post#249568
In response to PennFan10
I can’t help but wonder how Donahue’s year off from coaching may have influenced his style now. He went a lot of years consecutively coaching a team and his year off after BC he was on ESPN where he got access to all the top programs, their coaches, players and their practices. It’s tough to get an inside look into how the top programs work and I’m certain Steve went to school during hat time.
His willingness and ability to create a style around his existing talent is a big part of Penn’s success this far.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-18 11:53 AM - Post#249576
In response to PennFan10
Hopefully Penn is treating him well.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-26-18 12:45 PM - Post#249587
In response to PennFan10
What is remarkable is how he both forced some fundamental change (playing a 3 based style with guys who didn’t shoot it so well, losing the top player in the program who wasn’t a stylistic fit, etc.) along his traditional tendencies AND fashioned something new for him that maximizes the talent.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-18 12:56 PM - Post#249588
In response to SomeGuy
I think we also have to acknowledge the dramatic increase in athletic fitness and reduction in injuries over the pattern under Miller and Jerome. All of the guys in Donahue's program are much stronger and flexible after as little as a year---look at the difference in Caleb Wood's physique after one year. Guys like Foreman and Woods can play bigger men with their strength. Max and AJ both are much stronger than they were. And none of the starters have gotten hurt--just freshmen who probably need the year to get fit enough to play Donahue's way.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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02-26-18 01:10 PM - Post#249594
In response to palestra38
And none of the starters have gotten hurt...
If you just jinxed this team, I swear I will hunt you down and dispense justice.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-18 01:11 PM - Post#249595
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
Sorry....none of the starters HAS gotten hurt.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-26-18 01:14 PM - Post#249597
In response to palestra38
Don't forget about smart game strategies. For instance, they beat Harvard by going to the basket and shooting 76% from 2 pt range.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 365
Reg: 03-25-09
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02-26-18 01:33 PM - Post#249598
In response to 10Q
Bilsky isn't around to muck it up
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Coach of the Year
02-26-18 01:38 PM - Post#249600
In response to PennFan10
There's a case to be made for McLaughlin for 2nd.
Lose your way best player right before the season begins, but somehow be very competitive in the majority of the Ivy games played to date.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-26-18 02:54 PM - Post#249615
In response to SomeGuy
The more amazing part to me is how he got everyone to play their strongest role. I complained earlier in the season about how Foreman holds the ball, doesn't keep his eyes up on the drive, and shoots the three - none of which are good for the team. Now he does none of those things and is also a physical defender and calming endgame presence.
AJ sacrificed a lot of his spacing and offense to make room for Max. He played this season as a defense-first power forward and now is facilitating (and finding his offense again). he is dishing out of double teams very effectively.
Max took way too many shots earlier in the season. Now he is making incredible lead passes.
Woods was a high variance high turnover PG. Now he is a defensive rock.
Wood was MIA last season and a turnover machine. Now he is a sharpshooter and catalyst on offense.
I could go on and on - but this has to be one of the most amazing coaching and teamwork stories I've seen. Getting everyone to emphasize their strengths as opposed to highlight their weaknesses (and get everyone's buy-in) has to be one of the most impressive coaching accomplishments I've seen.
Penn is not a dominant team, but they are not giving away games. The transformation through the season has just been a privilege to watch.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-26-18 09:05 PM - Post#249691
In response to Penndemonium
You can see when a team has that cohesive "it" factor, where they make each other better and play within their skill sets while playing hard and reveling in team success. Penn has looked like that in all the games I've seen. Plus they've made a lot of good adjustments on both ends to overcome various challenges that came up. Hard to see how Donahue is not coach of the year.
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whitakk
Masters Student
Posts: 523
Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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02-27-18 01:08 AM - Post#249713
In response to SRP
Donahue will clearly win, and I agree he should, but don't dismiss the jobs done by Amaker (might share the title without getting anything from his best player) and Jones (lost two of his top three right before the season and still cruised to top four yet again).
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-27-18 12:10 PM - Post#249727
In response to whitakk
All true, but this’s is the Penn board, and Steve’s our boy. Plus, he got the program back to the top of the conference in three seasons. Did anybody expect that? I certainly didn’t.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-27-18 12:34 PM - Post#249728
In response to Silver Maple
I think there is an argument that Amaker has underperformed. Losing Aiken is a big deal but he still has more talent than everyone else. Seth Towns is a POY candidate and Lewis is a periodic monster with a shield of invisibility at times. Overall, with the league down and Harvard clearly the most talented, I think they should have run away with the league.
McLaughlin has done a great job with less despite the disgruntled fans in Hanover.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-27-18 07:41 PM - Post#249761
In response to PennFan10
The award should go to Steve, and I can't see how it wouldn't. When you have people looking at a team a lot, and they can't figure out how *that* team is generating *those* results, that's often a clear signal of strong coaching.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Coach of the Year
02-27-18 07:46 PM - Post#249762
In response to mrjames
Look, for example, at the Ivy POW awards.
If you followed the weekly honorees the whole year, you would have absolutely no idea that Penn has only one loss heading into the final week.
Edited by penn nation on 02-27-18 07:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-27-18 11:16 PM - Post#249790
In response to PennFan10
I think there is an argument that Amaker has underperformed. Losing Aiken is a big deal but he still has more talent than everyone else. Seth Towns is a POY candidate and Lewis is a periodic monster with a shield of invisibility at times. Overall, with the league down and Harvard clearly the most talented, I think they should have run away with the league.
McLaughlin has done a great job with less despite the disgruntled fans in Hanover.
Having thought more about this I need to amend my view. Amaker has lived up to expectations for the Ivy slate and this is a COY award for League play so he is certainly a viable candidate. He has turned his team into a defensive monster and genrall6 gotten enough offense to win. At 12-2 he would certainly merit COY. The OOC games was where I thought he didn’t do his best work, tinkering with lineups and losing winnable games against lesser competition.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 586
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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02-28-18 08:51 AM - Post#249804
In response to PennFan10
Ok let’s give Amaker COY and we get both the banner and the bid, deal?
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 08:59 AM - Post#249805
In response to Charlie Fog
Let's give him COY, forget the banner and just Dance Dance Dance. That means advancing to the Sweet.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-28-18 09:25 AM - Post#249807
In response to 10Q
Amaker can have the COY (although SD deserves it) and enough banners to carpet the lobby of that high school gym where his team plays as long as we get the bid, which goes to the league champion and is the only thing that counts. The fact that the league sold out and now arrives at its champion in a watered down manner is bad enough; that it pretends the league championship is something else is even worse.
While this may be more palatable to millenials who grew up being told that "everybody is a winner" and "everything you do is wonderful", it cheapens something that once distinguished us. Now we're like everybody else.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 09:36 AM - Post#249809
In response to LyleGold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4d7Wp9kKjA
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-28-18 09:37 AM - Post#249811
In response to 10Q
forget the banner and just Dance Dance Dance.
ba ba ba ba ba.....
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-28-18 12:41 PM - Post#249830
In response to 10Q
The FBI surround the house, "Throw the kid out,", they say, "give us your guns, and come out with your hands up."
The kidnappers say "We'll throw the kid out, but let us keep our guns, and get to our car."
The FBI says "Throw the kid out, we'll let you get to your car, but give us your guns."
The kidnappers say "We'll throw the kid out, but let us keep our guns - we don't have to get to our car."
The FBI says "Keep the kid."
The FBI decides to lob in teargas, but they don't have teargas, so several of the agents put on the death scene from Camellia. Tearstricken my abducters give themselves up. They are sentenced to fifteen years on a chaingang, and they escape, twelve of then chained together at the ankle, getting by the guards posing as an immense charm bracelet.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 12:58 PM - Post#249837
In response to Silver Maple
Id like to know what you are talking about.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-28-18 01:18 PM - Post#249843
In response to 10Q
Woody Allen standup routine re: hostage negotiation.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 02:16 PM - Post#249855
In response to Silver Maple
Almost all of which were incorporated into "Take the Money and Run"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEm0zi8QrpA
Bank robbery
Later, there is the hysterical chain gang escape where they hold an old woman hostage.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4473
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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02-28-18 03:22 PM - Post#249870
In response to palestra38
While we are completely off topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9i5F0VqohY
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 03:27 PM - Post#249872
In response to Cvonvorys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftiIPJky_Vs
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-28-18 04:08 PM - Post#249880
In response to Cvonvorys
The joke in my day was female undergrads boasting they had access to one of the country's largest organs.
[See Irvine Auditorium, Curtis Organ]
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 04:30 PM - Post#249888
In response to penn nation
But you weren't there when "Deep Throat" played 3 showings and the frats came out in large numbers to sit in the balcony and brought even larger numbers of Mayo packets from dining service.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-28-18 05:09 PM - Post#249898
In response to Silver Maple
Leave the gun, take the cannoli.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-28-18 06:01 PM - Post#249908
In response to LyleGold
Amaker can have the COY (although SD deserves it) and enough banners to carpet the lobby of that high school gym where his team plays as long as we get the bid, which goes to the league champion and is the only thing that counts. The fact that the league sold out and now arrives at its champion in a watered down manner is bad enough; that it pretends the league championship is something else is even worse.
While this may be more palatable to millenials who grew up being told that "everybody is a winner" and "everything you do is wonderful", it cheapens something that once distinguished us. Now we're like everybody else.
So, if I understand you correctly, given the option between:
a) Last year's team (13-14 regular season, 6-8 Ivy, 4th place) holding on to defeat Princeton in that Ivy Tournament semifinal and then defeating Yale for the NCAA berth (#16-seed), or
b) This year's team winning the regular-season Ivy title (23-7 regular season, 13-1 Ivy, 1st place, assuming a sweep this weekend) but coming up just short against Harvard in the Ivy Tournament final and going to the NIT where it has a legitimate shot at winning at least one post-season game
you'd select option "a" as your preference? That would be the more satisfying season because they received the NCAA Tournament bid, in your opinion? Interesting....
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 06:08 PM - Post#249909
In response to 13otto
Option 2 would be FAR worse. Option 1 was all house money. No one thought we deserved anything and I frankly was a little relieved (after the fact--disappointed at the moment) that Howard had choked the FT and that a team with no business being there wasn't dancing. But if we sweep this weekend and then lose in the tournament, I will be extremely disappointed.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-28-18 06:21 PM - Post#249923
In response to palestra38
This entire season was house money. No-one but no-one (well, aside from 10Q's joke) predicted Penn would come in first and if they do--that's an amazing and unexpected achievement.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 06:22 PM - Post#249925
In response to penn nation
House money is when you don't deserve it. We deserve it unless we blow it this weekend. You are misusing the term.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-28-18 06:32 PM - Post#249929
In response to palestra38
Option 2 would be FAR worse. Option 1 was all house money. No one thought we deserved anything and I frankly was a little relieved (after the fact--disappointed at the moment) that Howard had choked the FT and that a team with no business being there wasn't dancing. But if we sweep this weekend and then lose in the tournament, I will be extremely disappointed.
If that happens, I'll be very disappointed, too. But that's not the question so let me rephrase it. If I told you that next season (2018-19) the Ivy regular season champion won't win the Ivy tournament, would you prefer to finish around .500 overall, .500 in the league and win the Ivy Tournament? Or win 20+ games, go 13-1 in the league, but not win Ivy Madness? Which is going to be the more enjoyable season to devote 4+ months to watching?
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-28-18 06:39 PM - Post#249931
In response to palestra38
Well, neither option is particularly satisfactory since I clearly believe the regular season winner should get the bid. My main gripe is that now that we have the current system and will be stuck with it indefinitely, we can't try to have it both ways and claim titles for something that we no longer value. I felt the same way about claiming a title after losing a playoff game that supposedly wasn't for the championship after all, just the automatic bid.
If forced to choose between the two, I would gladly skip away with an NCAA bid I didn't deserve by winning a tournament that shouldn't exist. I agree with P38 that the potential horror of going 13-1 and losing the bid in the tournament would be tough to take and far outweigh any joy from option A.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-28-18 06:56 PM - Post#249934
In response to LyleGold
The ILT is better for the league overall. And going 13-1 in the league, regardless of the result of the ILT is absolutely valued by every coach and program and they all would unapologetically hang a banner if/when that happens for every recruit and alum to see forever.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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02-28-18 07:32 PM - Post#249936
In response to PennFan10
I'll be disappointed if this team doesn't go to the NCAAs.
But I'll be far more disappointed if they don't come in 1st in the league. That banner is important.
First things first - win Friday. Any talk beyond Friday is speculative.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32812
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 08:37 PM - Post#249949
In response to TheLine
That's true. The best way to look at this is to rely on the words of the immortal Rick Springfield: "I want to tell her that I love her but the point is probably moot." It doesn't matter what we want. It is what it is.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-28-18 08:54 PM - Post#249952
In response to TheLine
But I'll be far more disappointed if they don't come in 1st in the league. That banner is important
Ok, that's how you feel, but I can't understand how winning the regular season could matter more to you than going to the NCAAs. When I said that "we no longer value" the regular season, I point solely to the fact that it no longer carries the automatic bid with it. That was its real value.
I can tell by your screen name that you go back to the days when enough students cared that there WAS a line. Back then, going to the tournament was the main goal and it happened about half the time over the course of a few decades. Did you really feel any consolation after losing the playoffs in '96 (or '81 if you are old enough to remember) by having a share of the regular season? Do those banners make you feel anything other than disappointment?
I guess it's possible that some people see it that way. I just don't.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-18 09:19 PM - Post#249954
In response to penn nation
Why do you say I was joking?
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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02-28-18 10:10 PM - Post#249960
In response to LyleGold
A share of the regular season doesn't count.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Coach of the Year
02-28-18 10:36 PM - Post#249963
In response to TheLine
A share of the regular season doesn't count.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Wait, we DO agree on that. Not only do I think that a shared title followed by a playoff loss didn't count as a title back then, finishing first in the regular season followed by an ILT loss now doesn't count as a title either. To claim the Ivy League championship, you have to win the automatic bid. We just go about it in a way that devalues the regular season.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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02-28-18 11:32 PM - Post#249974
In response to LyleGold
Your favorite MLB team wins the pennant, only to be knocked out in the playoffs by the 2nd place team. Do they take the the pennant away and reward it to the 2nd place team? And does that pennant lose its value?
Where we agree is that we'd like both the banner and the NCAAs.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-01-18 12:03 AM - Post#249976
In response to LyleGold
When I said that "we no longer value" the regular season, I point solely to the fact that it no longer carries the automatic bid with it. That was its real value.
That's the part that is wrong to me. They split it up, which doesn't mean winning a banner has no value. It may have no value to you, but to the program and the school, banners have tremendous value and help the school attract athletes in the future.
Would you rather finish 4th each of the next ten years and win the bid via the ILT 5 times or finish first 10 years in a row and win the bid via ILT 5 times?
Just because they split the regular season championship banner and the bid into two separate pieces doesn't make one or the other less valuable to the school/team. Donahue has said the first and only goal is to win the league this weekend and hang that banner. Next weekend they can focus on the bid.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4473
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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03-01-18 10:55 AM - Post#249988
In response to PennFan10
I'm not sure why we need to debate these false alternatives:
Would y'all want us to finish first in the IL??
Would y'all want us to finish third in the IL but win the Ivy League tournament?
I would suggest both options would be favorable... Maybe not most favorable.
I think it's safe to say that all Penn posters want us to finish first in the IL and win the ILT and then knock off Purdue & Creighton to get into the Sweet Sixteen... In my ideal scenario, we crush Princeton in the first round before knocking off Harvard.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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03-01-18 01:19 PM - Post#250022
In response to Cvonvorys
Why do you have Princeton even in the ILT in your "ideal" scenario? I like it so much better if they don't get in. We have already crushed them this year, including at Jadwin. Why tempt fate?
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4473
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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03-01-18 02:40 PM - Post#250028
In response to SteveChop
My ideal scenario includes beating them in the Tourney. I guess my nightmare scenario is losing to them in the Tourney.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-01-18 03:00 PM - Post#250030
In response to Cvonvorys
I'd like a pony. The point is that you don't get everything you want.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-01-18 03:08 PM - Post#250031
In response to Silver Maple
I'd like a pony. The point is that you don't get everything you want.
Be careful what you ask for
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-06-18 02:22 PM - Post#251088
In response to penn nation
I was just reflecting on SD's coaching season. People have pointed out the strength of schedule and the decline of the league as reasons to discount the accomplishment.
The masterful coaching job was not because of the record in of itself and not because of the ivy league title. Those were byproducts of the coaching. The real beauty was in getting far more out of the talent than we've seen in the last decade. Everyone had a purpose and role and there was team buy-in. They competed to the end of EVERY game, even if there were mistakes in some of them.
I commented that I was impressed even after some of their early bad losses. An Ivy title makes it more obvious that SD was a great coach this year, but I think I would have felt that way regardless.
Hope he can recruit like mad from here, because he can clearly organize a team to play well.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-06-18 02:45 PM - Post#251093
In response to Penndemonium
I remarked right after the Nova blowout loss that Penn actually did not look bad out there one bit. No deer in the headlights look. Nova was simply at a way way higher level.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 586
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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03-06-18 03:06 PM - Post#251098
In response to penn nation
I attended that game and felt the same way.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-06-18 03:09 PM - Post#251099
In response to penn nation
Yes-- anybody who still has doubts about Donahue's ability with Xs and Os, as well as in creating an effective culture, should just shut up at this point. And now we'll find out how well he can recruit. If, after the season the team just had, Penn can't start bringing in the caliber of player that HYP have been getting for the past few seasons, it will mean either that recruiting is a weakness for Donahue, or that the systemic disadvantages are just too great to overcome.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-06-18 03:22 PM - Post#251100
In response to Penndemonium
I was just reflecting on SD's coaching season. People have pointed out the strength of schedule and the decline of the league as reasons to discount the accomplishment.
An Ivy title makes it more obvious that SD was a great coach this year, but I think I would have felt that way regardless.
Hope he can recruit like mad from here, because he can clearly organize a team to play well.
Not sure to whom you refer, but "discount" is pretty unfair. I don't remember anyone doing that, although some people roasted SD's foul/no foul end game strategy. I honestly don't believe anyone has downplayed his coaching accomplishments. That doesn't change the reality that we have a better chance to win the real championship due to Yale and Harvard being weakened by injuries and Princeton's unexpected collapse after a 16-0 championship year. Those factors will not be present next year, so this is a chance we can't let slip away. The real recruiting boon will come from an appearance in the NCAAs more than a share of a regular season title. That's not a knock on SD at all; it's just reality.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 586
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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Coach of the Year
03-06-18 08:52 PM - Post#251138
In response to LyleGold
If Stevie D doesn’t get COY, I will throw a streamer in protest after penn’s first FGM on Saturday! Technical be damned
Edited by Charlie Fog on 03-06-18 08:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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03-06-18 09:32 PM - Post#251144
In response to Charlie Fog
Donahue is COY and its not even an issue. Move on please
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 586
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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03-07-18 07:39 AM - Post#251174
In response to JadwinGeorge
I still might throw a streamer.
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