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Username Post: Ivy League Champs!        (Topic#21267)
Stuart Suss 
PhD Student
Posts: 1439

Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-05-18 02:54 PM - Post#250920    
    In response to Chip Bayers

As far as I know, I am the only poster who boycotted last year’s tournament and bragged about doing so. I am proud of what I did (both the boycotting and the bragging). I am happy to be the recipient of phone calls from fans curious as to whether or not I will attend this year’s tournament.

By the way, I was opposed to Big 5 games leaving the Palestra. For a few years I boycotted Penn’s Big 5 “road games.” That boycott came to an end when Villanova and Temple were not inclined to listen to me. I also remain opposed to the designated hitter and to wild card playoff teams, but I have not boycotted Major League Baseball.

I am pleased to see that the most prominent advocate for a tournament on this board, Mike James, has rescinded his support for the tournament in its current format. The likelihood of a second bid for an Ivy men’s team remains exceedingly slim. The league is struggling between two irreconcilable goals, a “fair” tournament or an “event” where everyone gathers together in a single, special location and where the women have equal billing with the men. The latter goal requires the tournament to be at the Palestra. The former goal precludes the Palestra as a site. It requires home court advantage for the #1 seed along with the likely separate locations for the men and the women.

The league has, for now, decided in favor of a tournament, while remaining conflicted regarding the venue. Cornell, Columbia, Princeton and Brown all were permitted to play meaningful games on the final weekend of the season. Somewhere along the way the Ivy League will have its Monmouth, a deserving NCAA team that was twice left out of the “big dance” because of the post-season tournament in the MAAC. We have debated that trade-off on this board and will continue to do so.

If Mike James is correct, the tournament is leaving the Palestra next year, likely for a neutral site. That neutral site will be perfectly fair, perfectly dull and perfectly empty. Chip has recently made the same point in a skillfully crafted and entertaining post regarding empty seats.

This year, the Ivy League listened to me (and to others) and reduced the price of tickets. Saturday’s men’s doubleheader has tickets for $25, $45 and $60. Chairback seats are available for $70 from the participating schools. Those who purchase tickets for the men’s doubleheader may remain for the women’s doubleheader in the evening. I am assured that fans will be allowed to leave and return to the building during the course of the day and evening. Sunday tickets will cost $20, $40, $50 or $60 (from the participants), with the same privileges. There is a slight discount if you purchase a combination package for both days. There is also a general admission price, good for the women’s doubleheader on Saturday night or for all three women’s games.

Last season, Penn did not deserve to be in the tournament. Penn was there only because the Ivy League had promised to take four teams, and 6-8 Penn finished in 4th place. This season, Penn deserves to be in the tournament. This may be the last year, for a while, that the tournament will exist in the special atmosphere of the Palestra. And, if neither team stumbles on Saturday, we will have the Penn vs. Harvard playoff game which would have taken place under the traditional system.

I will attend the Penn men’s games in this year’s tournament. Next year, I hope you enjoy your weekend in Bridgeport.


 
Penn90 
Masters Student
Posts: 570
Penn90
Reg: 11-22-04
03-05-18 03:45 PM - Post#250929    
    In response to AsiaSunset

AS, you wrote:

  • Quote:
Clearly there were other options like taking a step backwards, as football had done. We chose not to do that, so in my mind that's a positive and I embrace all steps to move forward, not backwards.



Actually, I think the Ivy League was smart in the long run, although it could hardly anticipate that football was literally hazardous to your health, nor could it anticipate just how rapacious and unethical DI football would become. If you want Penn to hang out with anonymous mid-majors in basketball and dirty football programs turning players into future plaintiffs in class actions, be my guest.

  • Quote:
I realize that we have faux scholarships for a segment of the player pool with more generous fin aid packages (which helps), but they are not the same as full scholarships.



If full scholarships mean we have to do crazy sh!t just to keep up with low-level DI leagues (hiring recruit’s parents as assistants, recruiting violations, shamelessly chasing TV revenue – oh, wait…) then I'm glad we have faux scholarships. Honestly, DI sports is such a cesspit right now I can't believe you or anybody is advocating athletic scholarships. If anything we should advocate up-front compensation. And why should Penn focus so much attention on a handful of students when the $70K pricetag is prohibitive to virtually all students -- especially first-generation college applicants? All Penn has is its reputation and credibility. Penn and the other Ivies are a cut above the rest in many ways. Lose your credibility and you can’t get it back. One sure step to losing that credibility is hangout with schools that have already lost it.

  • Quote:
The world has changed. I think older alums like many of us need to recognize that what younger people like is not always what we like, from dining choices, to music and certainly when it comes to sports entertainment.



Judging by the fact that Penn has to offer students free Uber rides to travel six blocks to their dorms I'd say you're all too correct! Millennials don’t care. So why should Penn or any Ivy give a rat's butt about athletic scholarships or starting a league tournament to appease a moribund media giant?

Sorry for being such a boring old traditionalist fart, Asia, but I think your obnoxious crowing is a lot worse than a few old-timers grumbling about a tournament. I'm just happy that Penn is coached by a seemingly (for all we know) ethical, competent coach, and the team is good again. I don't care about a tournament at the Palestra or a neutral site, and I surely don't care about Penn making the NCAAs only to draw a 15th seed and have its butt kicked in the first round.

I used to care a lot more about Penn hoops, but college sports are so awful I think it’s more impressive what Penn has done this year despite no athletic scholarships.
Leges sine moribus vanae


 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1878

Reg: 11-29-04
03-05-18 04:11 PM - Post#250936    
    In response to Penn90

My position is that I can live with the ILT. I'm only griping about the fact that the league has to play ball in a system stacked against the Ivy League and smaller conferences. I generally believe that the regular season winner is the strongest team (barring injuries). Last year, the team with the best chance of winning was Princeton, regardless of whether Penn would have upset them in the tournament. For a league which seems destined to only have one NCAA bid, it deserves to have it's strongest representative to give the league a chance to win. Anything less than that means that a conference that is already unlikely to win an NCAA tournament game is even less likely. Eventually, a very poor league record in the NCAA tournament will be used to justify not giving the Ivy League automatic bids or else making a play-in bracket of smaller conference teams in order to make the NCAA tournament more TV worthy. I am a proponent of requiring that conferences that give an automatic bid their conference tournament champion give up a spot if the tournament winner wouldn't otherwise have made the tournament.

I know none of this will happen. I will choose to enjoy the tournament since it is being played.




 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
03-05-18 04:27 PM - Post#250946    
    In response to Stuart Suss

I don't think its a done deal that the tournament leaves the Palestra. I think Mike is right that the thinking is leaning away but it's not a definitive decision yet.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-05-18 11:53 PM - Post#251019    
    In response to Chip Bayers

  • Chip Bayers Said:

But think of the joy those empties with their built in cup holders got seeing the league’s only top 100 Pomeroy team, regular season champ and #1 seed NKU, knocked out a potential NCAA bid by those pesky Pomeroy 310 CSU Vikings!




Another upset tonight! Only 1 game away from Dancing, play-in style.

What are some of the worst teams to ever make the tourney?

 
umbrellaman 
Masters Student
Posts: 469
umbrellaman
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-06-18 12:42 AM - Post#251022    
    In response to penn nation

They’re writing about us! This thread, perhaps.
“There was a time when this kind of empty-arena net-cutting behavior would’ve been scoffed at by Penn fans; indeed, many Penn fans mocked the same situation when Yale cut down the nets in an empty gym after Penn, Princeton and the Elis all tied for the title in 2002. If you’ve never seen a college basketball message board full of Ivy League-educated fans, just know that things can get pretty rough. (And if you really want to get them riled up, ask them what they think about the fact the Ivy League has a tournament at all.”
https://deadspin.com/penn-cut-down-the-net s-in-an-...
He’s probably on here, a regular?



 
SteveChop 
PhD Student
Posts: 1150

Reg: 07-28-07
Ivy League Champs!
03-06-18 06:19 PM - Post#251125    
    In response to 10Q

Add me to Lyle and 10Q as a dinosaur who will, as usual, be screaming for the Quakers, both men and women, on Saturday and Sunday and remaining opposed to the ILT (though I realize that fight is lost) until the Ivy League has any sort of chance to get a second team into the NCAA tournament.

As to another comment, how did Ivy football "go backwards"? it hasn't changed its approach in the 50+ years since I entered Penn. The fact that football is the ONLY sport in which Ivy teams don't participate in a post-season tournament still baffles me.

Edited by SteveChop on 03-06-18 06:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
JDP 
Masters Student
Posts: 560

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-06-18 10:02 PM - Post#251156    
    In response to SteveChop

Like in 2014-15, the Princeton women have a high enough RPI that they should be considered for an at large bid into the tournament.

 
SteveChop 
PhD Student
Posts: 1150

Reg: 07-28-07
03-06-18 11:44 PM - Post#251170    
    In response to JDP

I know that it has happened in women's IL play. My reference (which I should have made clearer) referred to the men's NCAA tournament, which is where the real money is.

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-07-18 07:25 AM - Post#251172    
    In response to SteveChop

Steve - you've been around long enough to understand what I said.

1. Ivy football teams used to reign supreme in the Northeast and many Ivy teams were awarded the Lambert trophy representing supremacy in the East. You certainly remember those days.

2. the Ivies used to be in one large D1 classification that was bifurcated in the early 80's into two, now referred to as FBS and FCS. This was not of our doing and unavoidable because the league failed to meet certain FBS parameters. What is avoidable was becoming virtually irrelevant within the FCS classification we compete in which is where we unfortunately find ourselves today.

3. Now - we compete in a division populated by 124 universities/colleges. We are one of only two leagues that compete in that division not to offer scholarships.

4. A championship was created for the FCS division. We are the only league that doesn't allow our league champion to participate. Every other Ivy sport is allowed to participate in a national championship. The FCS championship is separate and apart from the FBS championship for the big money programs that have been plagued by a lot of problems that even the most ardent Ivy fans would want us to avoid..

5. All remaining sports in the league have been freed from AI banding requirements except football.

6. We refuse to allow an 11th game while almost every D1 and D2 and D3 team plays 10+. We can't even organize a preseason scrimmage because even the D2/D3 teams we used to bring in are scheduled.

Now the Ivy League has done certain good stuff. We've taken a leading position in the field of concussion prevention and diagnosis. But - we need to all recognize that this concern extends beyond football. We have soccer players, hockey players and lacrosse players incurring head trauma. They all compete in national championships. Concussions are a serious issue in most contact sports that thankfully people are paying increased attention to. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have an 11th game or sideline our league champion.

So maybe it would be more appropriate to describe Ivy football as stuck in the mud while its peer institutions take steps forward. This certainly sets us apart and makes us minor and somewhat irrelevant players in the division that we compete in. And you do know that's basically where the dinosaurs ended up - stuck in the mud (or tar pits more appropriately) and that's where many of them met their end. As older white men, we need to recognize that we will control less over time and our reign is coming to an end. The young will determine the future, even the make-up of sports entertainment. With every passing day, we become less relevant as the desired target market for almost all things except things like Cialis and Depends.

So - just consider - that what you or I prefer just might be out of step with where things are headed.

 
SteveChop 
PhD Student
Posts: 1150

Reg: 07-28-07
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-07-18 03:21 PM - Post#251269    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Thanks Asia. I did not know that the football reference was to pre-Ivy League days - and, by the way, I'm not THAT old - I came to Philadelphia in 1967.

As to item#2, many of the schools that were in the old D1 are now FCS schools who DO compete in that division's national championships. So why would the Ivies choose to be irrelevant within that classification?

Your comment about the Ivies' lack of scholarships is the case in ALL sports - why are you making an issue of it here?

As to #4, I concur that the Ivies should not want to be involved in the FBS issues. Other than that, this item is merely a statement of fact.

As I have never really understood AI, I am not sure what point #5 means.

On point #6, you are obviously correct. But what is the objection to an 11th game. As it works now, the Ivy teams are often at a disadvantage in their early season games because their non-Ivy opponents have generally already played 1 or 2 games. Why does the League want to put its teams at that disadvantage? (As an aside, Ivy teams play one less BBall game during the season, the supposed "price" for creating the tournament which leaves four teams with one less game for the season.)

So while I understand your points (other than #5 as noted), not sure WHY that is the IL's position, i.e. not competing in the FCS national championship tournament. As to the dinosaur analogy, the old fogies like you and me WOULD turn out for an 11th regular season (and possible playoff) game(s) - students barely show up for FB and BB games now. It has already been discussed that the sports are PRIMARILY for the athletes to participate - why are football players denied the opportunity to compete in their (FCS) division for a national championship?

As to in-game entertainment, the blaring disco music (chosen over the band) is not getting students to pour in. When they show up, we can discuss what entertainment changes, if any, should be made.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

 
caughtinasnare 
Senior
Posts: 362

Age: 35
Reg: 02-21-09
03-07-18 04:05 PM - Post#251272    
    In response to SteveChop

It boggles my mind that with the supposed best business school in the land on campus, we can't do some market research surveys among the student body to determine what would put more students into the seats at various sporting events...

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
03-07-18 05:30 PM - Post#251286    
    In response to caughtinasnare

Best business school for finance. Marketing?

Not so much.

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-07-18 05:58 PM - Post#251288    
    In response to SteveChop

Steve

Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about pre Ivy days. I'd also point out that in most Ivy sports the other schools have far fewer scholarships available than roster spots. that means in a sport like lacrosse, very few of Duke's players are full scholarship. Our generous financial aid packages are very competitive in non football, non basketball sports because of that.

As for the bigger question you posed - student non attendance - I do think the make up of the student body has changed. I agree with another poster that consistent winning would help Penn bb a lot; nevertheless, these kids are much better students than we were and have so many things at their fingertips that are entertaining that we never had. The school has tried a million different marketing promotions to get them to attend both football and basketball games. It's difficult. I remember when my sister's youngest was at Yale. He used to go to a sports bar to watch Nebraska (they live there). He was a jock who played rugby at Yale and QB in high school, but had zero interest in any Yale football game other than the Harvard game (and that was mostly about partying).



 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
03-07-18 06:24 PM - Post#251289    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Take a look at the Penn website and what they've organized for the ILT. They are trying:

Come by The Palestra Friday for Penn's Open Practices!
Men's Basketball
March 07, 2018
PHILADELPHIA - On Friday, March 9, The Palestra will be open for fans to watch each team's open practice prior to this weekend's Ivy League Tournament! Fans are encouraged to attend the free sessions and get an early peek at each team as they prepare for Saturday's semifinal games.

Penn fans can catch both the men's and women's teams during this day. Take an early lunch break and catch the men's team from 11:10-11:50 a.m., and maybe take an afternoon respite from your desk to catch the women's team from 3:10-3:50 p.m. The entire schedule for the day is below.

Tickets are still available for Saturday's semifinal games, as well as the championship games on Sunday, all at The Palestra. Click here to get your tickets and see two teams—one men's, one women's—punch their tickets to the 2018 NCAA Tournaments!

For those who cannot attend Friday's festivities, the Ivy League Network (ILN) will have full coverage, free of charge, from Philadelphia. "Live From The Palestra" will feature a look into each team's open practice, a conversation with each participating head coach and select student-athletes, as well as special guests and full previews for both tournaments.

Penn's own Joe Tordy will host the show from the floor of the Palestra. He'll be joined by former Princeton forward Noah Savage to preview the men's semifinals, while former Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia personality Dei Lynam will take a look at the women's semifinals. They will break down key storylines of each team, season recaps, and feature content.

Open Practice Schedule at The Palestra (Friday, March 9)
9:10-9:50 a.m. – Harvard men
10:10-10:50 a.m. – Cornell men
11:10-11:50 a.m. – Penn men
12:10-12:50 p.m. – Yale men
1:10-1:50 p.m. – Princeton women
2:10-2:50 p.m. – Yale women
3:10-3:50 p.m. – Penn women
4:10-4:50 p.m. – Harvard women


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caughtinasnare 
Senior
Posts: 362

Age: 35
Reg: 02-21-09
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-07-18 07:07 PM - Post#251295    
    In response to AsiaSunset

I was a freshman when we last won the league in 2007, and my seat was in the 200s about even with the baseline and even with the top of the archway going to the concourse. All of the seats in front of me and to the side of me were full, and there were a few rows behind me that were full as well.

After that season, there was a precipitous drop-off in student attendance, but it started from the beginning as far as I can remember, though it was 10 years ago. I don't know the actual reason why that is the case, but that's what I remember. By my senior year, I remember a game where I actually counted the number of chants and I personally had to start about 1/3 of them. I can't imagine the student body turning over that dramatically in such a short time from "people who will get excited for Ivy Basketball" to "people who don't even care that Ivy Basketball exists". It might be winning vs. losing, but a return to relevance hasn't changed things and again, if I remember correctly, the drop off started before the losing could really be palpable.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-07-18 07:14 PM - Post#251299    
    In response to caughtinasnare

  • caughtinasnare Said:
It might be winning vs. losing, but a return to relevance hasn't changed things and again, if I remember correctly, the drop off started before the losing could really be palpable.



Well, they did get 6500 fans for the final home game against Harvard. I'm guessing it has been a very long time since they've had that kind of a crowd for a regular season Ivy game.




 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
03-07-18 07:50 PM - Post#251307    
    In response to penn nation

It takes time to rebuild a fan base in any sport. Baseball teams that have spent years in the wilderness tend not to see attendance pops until the year AFTER the first winning season and playoff run, for example.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-07-18 08:20 PM - Post#251313    
    In response to penn nation

A lot of discounted groups for that game and very few students (they were on break, though).

 
caughtinasnare 
Senior
Posts: 362

Age: 35
Reg: 02-21-09
Re: Ivy League Champs!
03-07-18 10:03 PM - Post#251327    
    In response to penn nation

Between the Palestra Honor Band (over 100 kids, plus a good number of family members for them), plus the Volunteer Appreciation event, it's not exactly a "regular" game. There was minimal student representation outside the band, though the timing of Spring Break certainly didn't help matters.

That said, I was there and it was fantastic. Still didn't hold a candle to the atmosphere in 2007, though.

 
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