Untitled Document
Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



 Page 2 of 3 ALL<123
Username Post: Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?        (Topic#21313)
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3793

Age: 55
Reg: 07-07-09
03-12-18 10:56 AM - Post#252326    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
TV guys had locked in on a particular Penn lovely to show at every break in the first half. She was having a great time.


Except that one break she spent on her smart phone while I was screaming "Stop the tweeting, you millennial!" at my TV.


 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 8084

Reg: 12-07-04
03-12-18 12:32 PM - Post#252379    
    In response to TheLine

Can we talk about the last call on Betley again? I've heard a lot of complaining, especially from the Columbia color guy, but do we know that the ball even went out of bounds? The camera angle we have shows Ryan securing the ball again but you can't tell where on the floor it hits. Does anyone know that it definitively hit the sideline? If not, he had the ball back and yes he was trapped and may have needed a timeout, but it wasn't just Harvard ball.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15059

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
03-12-18 09:06 PM - Post#252599    
    In response to Quakers03

We totally lucked out on what was a bad call. I don’t know if it went out of bounds. The whistle stopped the action.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11585

Reg: 12-02-04
Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 09:10 PM - Post#252602    
    In response to Quakers03

10Q appears to be correct on the whistle. There's no conclusive proof the ball went out of bounds, but there is some indirect circumstantial evidence, based both on where Betley ended up and the look on his face, that it might have done so.

  • Quakers03 Said:
Can we talk about the last call on Betley again? I've heard a lot of complaining, especially from the Columbia color guy, but do we know that the ball even went out of bounds? The camera angle we have shows Ryan securing the ball again but you can't tell where on the floor it hits. Does anyone know that it definitively hit the sideline? If not, he had the ball back and yes he was trapped and may have needed a timeout, but it wasn't just Harvard ball.




Edited by penn nation on 03-12-18 09:11 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 794

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
03-12-18 09:42 PM - Post#252614    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I know that you are a good die-hard Crimson fan who was not in favor of the tournament but have accepted the reality of IvyMadness. You have heard all of the arguments of the tournament proponents that have evolved from substantive arguments, i.e. two bid, increased regular season attendance yadi yada. As some of those arguments have fallen to the wayside based on reality over the last two years, the more subjective arguments have popped up, i.e. every conference does it, it's FUN, etc.

Another talking point is that if the #1 seed loses, it's ok as the team gets an automatic bid to the NIT and everyone should be thrilled or at least happy.

I am curious how you and other Crimson fans truly feel by losing by 3 points as a road team. Are you happy that the Crimson are going to the NIT? Do you feel that you got screwed?



 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1868

Reg: 02-15-15
03-12-18 09:50 PM - Post#252618    
    In response to bradley

Kerosene, see fire.......

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1154

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 10:54 PM - Post#252636    
    In response to PennFan10

Thanks for the summary.

I do still think that the Tournament is not a good idea for a single bid league. It is filled with landmines (Penn taking Princeton to OT, Towns getting hurt), likely kills any chance for a second bid by adding another loss to all but one team, and simply increases the chance for a bad result (e.g., best team doesn't make the NCAA Tournament - see 2017 OT).

Hopefully, you can read my points objectively. This is not anti-Penn. These objections apply mainly because home court is not earned and it happens that the Palestra is incovenient to most of the league.

The Tournament as currently constituted is:
- unfair: one school has a distinct home court advantage which absolutely impacts the competitiveness of the entire competition;
- inconvenient: the Palestra is the southernmost location in the conference - why pick a geographical outlier?;
- does not deliver as a purported Ivy gathering. Thus far, the tournament and its host has not delivered as an Ivy League meeting venue, it's a smallish old fashioned arena with no common spaces or amenities. There is no central location and there are no social events, just a poor excuse for refreshments. Might as well be in Bridgeport once you leave the arena. There is NOTHING planned or offered. Outside the area, the only thing evidencing what was going on at all was an ice sculpture - and only for Saturday as it was apparently vandalized after the first day. I was wondering why there were no social events or mixers planned like I've attended in the nearby Gordon track and tennis facilities at Harvard. Do the facilities not exist? Or is it because no visitors make the trek to Philly?
- I was at every game for two years and saw very few non-Penn students. This event is not friendly to students of most schools who must travel hours each way (e.g., Cornell 6AM bus, RT in one day!). Again, this is because Philadelphia is a distant locale for most. How many Penn students travel to Hanover, Ithaca or even Cambridge for games? Other than Penn students, very few others showed not because they don't want to cheer their team and watch a sport they love, but because the location is prohibitive (time, logistics and expense). As the father of a current Ivy student, and based on personal experience, I know this is a FACT.
- overnight accommodations are not great. If you don't drive, local hotels ran $250 - $400/night. Penn was on break and so the dorms seemed to be closed (so students can't even stay with friends at Penn).

Bottom line: if you host a gathering of 8 supposedly equal partners and roughly 90% of the attendees are the host itself, you've done something dramatically wrong. If in the first two years (a) the 6-8 home team almost beats the (14-0) league champion, and then (b) in year two that same home team can't cover the statistical home court advantage but wins anyway, then you KNOW that the decision to have Penn host the tournament is influencing the outcomes. HCA is proven: Penn lost to Harvard and Yale on the road, only able to beat them at home.

These kids start practicing in October with one thing in mind - to go dancing. Seems awfully wrong to make non-Penn teams prove they can beat Penn on the road to reach their goal. How can this possibly be justified?

Footnote: I have no idea what would have happened at a neutral site, but both games at the Palestra were one possession games. There was no such close contest at Lavietes (9 points - cut from 16 midway through the second half). Did the better team win? Now, we will never know.

Yes, the Palestra means something to many, but not me. Maybe that's why I see things differently (objectively?).



Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-12-18 10:58 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 794

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 11:11 PM - Post#252640    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I appreciate how you feel and how disappointed it must be not to have played the deciding game on a neutral court. Both teams are good, not great, hard nosed teams that you could flip a coin as to who would best represent the IL. Obviously, Yale and Cornell did not deserve the opportunity but fortunately, they were trounced in the semi-finals of the IvyMadness absurdity.

I do have great empathy for the fans and more importantly, the players who will be NIT bound. They deserve better.

The outcome may well have been the same if played on a neutral court but we will never know.

Harvard was classy as to how they handled the situation and I would not be the least bit surprised if they come back with vengeance next year. Coach Donahue and Penn players are to be respected as well.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11585

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 11:12 PM - Post#252641    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

We went over this earlier in the year, and I know you disagree, but Penn was at a major disadvantage when playing in Allston. Lots of games in a relatively short time span, plus the ridiculous Saturday early start in Allston after having to schlep in from Hanover. That's not something Harvard ever has to worry about when it ventures to P-land.

In any event--I think most if not all Penn fans agree with your other critiques. Just remember that Penn was not the ringleader that caused this tourney to happen. I would be more than happy if things went back to the 14 game one.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1154

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-12-18 11:23 PM - Post#252644    
    In response to penn nation

Agreed on reverting back to tournament.

Are you serious? Penn is at a disadvantage because it's on the road, but Harvard isn't. I see, it is a burden to travel to New England, but not from New England.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11585

Reg: 12-02-04
Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 11:31 PM - Post#252645    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Penn has many games in a short period of time during this tretch--Harvard did not experience as many Ivy games in as short of a period. Thank our friends at Princeton for this, as well as our Ivy friends whose insistence on a tourney made this occur.

Penn takes the longest road trip of the season to Hanover. Followed by a early am arrival in Allston/Cambridge, but plays an early 6 pm game (as opposed to other Saturday night Ivy games on other weeks in Allston that started hours later).

The trip from Princeton to Penn is much shorter.

Plus we were banged up and/or sick, although in truth that's no excuse given what Harvard has had to deal with this year.

Edited by penn nation on 03-12-18 11:32 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1154

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 11:32 PM - Post#252646    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Look, this isn't about which team is better. Nor am I maligning Penn's basketball team in any way. Donahue has done a great job with the program in a short time. I never went there except to note that winning seemed to follow HCA in this instance.

I absolutely want to congratulate Penn and wish you success against Kansas.

I'm just hoping that the league learns from this experiment.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-12-18 11:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Big R&B Truth 
Senior
Posts: 394
Big R&B Truth
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 11:33 PM - Post#252647    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
We went over this earlier in the year, and I know you disagree, but Penn was at a major disadvantage when playing in Allston. Lots of games in a relatively short time span, plus the ridiculous Saturday early start in Allston after having to schlep in from Hanover. That's not something Harvard ever has to worry about when it ventures to P-land.
.



Hanover to Cambridge is a 2 to 2 1/2 hour drive. It hardly qualifies as a schlep.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11585

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-12-18 11:36 PM - Post#252648    
    In response to Big R&B Truth

It does when you compare it to the trip between Penn and Princeton.

And in the winter, you had better hope the weather is not wintry otherwise getting to and from Hanover can be a real adventure.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1154

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-12-18 11:37 PM - Post#252650    
    In response to penn nation

Road trips are supposed to be road trips. That's why they are reciprocal.

Conference tournaments are a different story.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11585

Reg: 12-02-04
03-12-18 11:44 PM - Post#252652    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

No argument on the second point.

 
Big R&B Truth 
Senior
Posts: 394
Big R&B Truth
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
Re: Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-13-18 12:21 AM - Post#252656    
    In response to penn nation

I have been living in New England for over 25 years, and I frequently travel to NH and VT on winter weekends to go skiing. I can tell you that there is usually only 4 or 5 days in Jan and Feb when winter weather impacts travel. When this happens, the main highways are usually cleared within a few hours. I have to admit that Cambridge does do a crappy job clearing its streets.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11585

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-13-18 12:25 AM - Post#252658    
    In response to Big R&B Truth

Thank you for the late night laugh!

Now I can go to sleep.



 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3793

Age: 55
Reg: 07-07-09
Can we talk about Home Court Advantage?
03-13-18 08:51 AM - Post#252664    
    In response to penn nation

Most of the folks on this thread are from one of the basketball "haves" in the league (I guess Penn now qualifies as a "have" again and I'm giving Princeton the benefit of the doubt). I'm wondering about the opinion from fans of the "have nots." If you are from one of the BCCD universtiies, what do you think?

I graduated from both Penn and Columbia and am an avid supporter of both. While the Penn side of me does have mixed opinions (I totally get the argument that it could be best for the league to reward and send the season conference winner to the dance), the Columbia side of me likes that there is more for the players to play for even when you're not competing for 1st.

Also my sense is that the coaches, players, students, and schools are all for a tournament, and the only holdouts are older alums from the "haves." Am I right about that?

I'm not trying to make a value judgment on one side of the debate v. the other, just am trying to make sure I understand who is on each side of the debate.




Edited by TheLine on 03-13-18 08:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3281

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-13-18 09:31 AM - Post#252666    
    In response to TheLine

Agreed. Dartmouth is my grad school alma mater, and I definitely root for them (as long as they're not playing Penn). As a fan of the Big Green, I think the Ivy tournament has given the program a lot more to play for, and new potential paths to success. Dartmouth has actually recruited surprisingly well in recent years, and I think that the tournament had at least a bit to do with that. (Now, if only the coach could figure out a way to win with those players.) If I weren't primarily a Penn fan, the Dartmouth fan in me would probably be a lot more unhappy about the prospect of the tournament staying in Philadelphia.

BTW, having made that Hanover-to-Boston drive many times, I can say that It's unpredictable. Sometimes it's a breeze, sometimes (based on traffic and weather) it's a total nightmare.

 
 Page 2 of 3 ALL<123
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

3316 Views




Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.203 seconds.   Total Queries: 18   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 02:03 AM
Top