Untitled Document
Brown Columbia Cornell Dartmouth Harvard Penn Princeton Yale



 Page 1 of 2 ALL12
Username Post: Ivy tournament        (Topic#21324)
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
03-11-18 03:00 PM - Post#251970    

This series convinced need me that it has to be moved to a neutral court. First of all, why would the other ADs permit one school to have an enormous recruiting advantage by being able to say that they host the championship every year? Second, since there is a pronounced home team advantage (statistically easy to demonstrate) why give Penn a built in advantage whenever it is in the tournament? Finally, Although I have no particular interest in seeing Harvard beat Penn or vice versatility, I thought that the officiating was pretty much one-sided. The clincher for me was when Harvard pretty clearly and cleanly trapped Betley, who then stepped out of bounds, but the call went against Harvard.


 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 274

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
Re: Ivy tournament
03-11-18 03:03 PM - Post#251972    
    In response to Chet Forte

I thought the foul call was rather obvious, at least on tv.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3440

Reg: 11-23-04
03-11-18 03:21 PM - Post#251981    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I agree with Chet on both.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11366

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Ivy tournament
03-11-18 04:38 PM - Post#252013    
    In response to Chet Forte

The officials made questionable calls against both teams. There wasn't any clear advantage there. For the most part, they weren't calling a lot of fouls, anyways--against either team.

Home court, obviously a different discussion.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3521

Reg: 02-04-06
03-11-18 10:33 PM - Post#252205    
    In response to penn nation

The worst was the phantom restricted-area charge call against Harvard in the first half. Open and shut. Didn't see too many bad calls go the other way, but the total number of bad calls was small.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1785

Reg: 02-15-15
03-11-18 10:37 PM - Post#252213    
    In response to SRP

The flop against Max was ridiculous and at a crucial moment. The officials did not decide the game and it was pretty evenly officiated

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 428

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Ivy tournament
03-12-18 08:59 AM - Post#252273    
    In response to Chet Forte

  • Chet Forte Said:
This series convinced need me that it has to be moved to a neutral court. First of all, why would the other ADs permit one school to have an enormous recruiting advantage by being able to say that they host the championship every year? Second, since there is a pronounced home team advantage (statistically easy to demonstrate) why give Penn a built in advantage whenever it is in the tournament? Finally, Although I have no particular interest in seeing Harvard beat Penn or vice versatility, I thought that the officiating was pretty much one-sided. The clincher for me was when Harvard pretty clearly and cleanly trapped Betley, who then stepped out of bounds, but the call went against Harvard.



The Princeton-Penn women's game served as a pretty good counterargument to all this.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1112

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Ivy tournament
03-12-18 09:40 AM - Post#252288    
    In response to Go Green

It will come as no surprise that this Harvard fan continues to think that playing the tournament on the home court of one team - a geographical outlier, and the inferior seed - is ludicrous.

For the final game, well over 80%+ and possibly as many as 90% of the fans were home team fans and students. The benefits, penalties, and issues associated with playing at home and/or traveling to play away are well documented and - to some extent - quantified. I can't believe any unbiased person can honestly say that this is the right way to decide the season between two very well matched teams.

I've read one young Penn fan post on the Penn thread about how amazing it is to have the opportunity to muster at home for such an important game. What about the other 7 schools and their students? Cornell students had to be on a bus at 6am and travel over 8 hrs RT in a single day to support their team. When Harvard won Saturday, where were those students going to stay overnight? How many students can afford that. For the second year in a row, the FOLLY became a FARCE.

This is not a complaint against Penn basketball, but what the League has created is plain wrong to the point where it absolutely impacts the outcome. Despite the 'party line', there is no way players and coaches are ok with handing their opponent a 4 point advantage (possibly more under these circumstances). Too bad Penn had not won the semifinal last year, upending 14-0 Princeton. Maybe we could have ended - or at least fixed - this travesty sooner.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-12-18 09:41 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18824

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy tournament
03-12-18 09:48 AM - Post#252295    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I agree it is unfair. "Inferior seed", however, is purely subjective. Penn played better in conference than did Harvard and only the ridiculous tiebreaker went in Harvard's favor.

Problem is that the Ivies don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars renting a building and the only other suitable conference setting is Jadwin, which really does nothing to address these issues. Now maybe if Harvard used some of its billions to build an arena worthy of the money it has spent on the program under Amaker, there would be a rotational argument to be made. I can't believe that after announcing they were going to build a new arena, all it did was renovate Levietes.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1112

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Ivy tournament
03-12-18 09:59 AM - Post#252305    
    In response to palestra38

Correct on both points.

Teams really tied in my estimation, seeding criteria was established by the league also, although it did have some objective connection to merit, which home court for tournament does not. Playoff on neutral court.

Requiring a school to have to invest in a facility in order to 'buy' home court advantage is troubling for obvious reasons. As I've heard it, Harvard did not think it is appropriate to spend the money on a new arena ahead of refurbishing student dorms. Not sure the Ivy League wants to penalize a school for a decision like that.

By the way, not sure Penn played better than Harvard in conference. Certainly didn't play better head to head in conference.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-12-18 10:00 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 428

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Ivy tournament
03-12-18 10:07 AM - Post#252308    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:


Requiring a school to have to invest in a facility in order to 'buy' home court advantage is troubling for obvious reasons. As I've heard it, Harvard did not think it is appropriate to spend the money on a new arena ahead of refurbishing student dorms. Not sure the Ivy League wants to penalize a school for a decision like that.



But that's pretty much the exact argument that Princeton and Penn fans were telling the rest of us when they had a stranglehold on Ivy (men's) play. "You guys want to get better players? Stop playing in a high school gym and build a real arena like we do."

As for Lavietas, posters here said that the new venue didn't go forward because of NIMBY opposition.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18824

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Ivy tournament
03-12-18 10:12 AM - Post#252311    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

How many OT games did Harvard play?

But I agree that there is no debate about fairness under the former format. However, given that there is a tournament, we both know that while Bridgeport (as an example) would be fairer, there would be a significant cost to rent a facility for 2 days. There is no rent for use of the Palestra--so the League makes money and puts on a helluva show (BTW, if they want to host in Jadwin, they would have to install a modern videoboard, which was an integral part of the program).

I just don't see any of the schools wanting to shell out $100K or more for a neutral site. But I wait to see what happens.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1112

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-12-18 10:16 AM - Post#252313    
    In response to Go Green

Harvard and Yale have obviously debunked the concept that the size of the gymnasium begets championships.

As for the refurbishment of Lavietes instead of a new 6,000 arena, I reported what I've heard. If you've been to Allston recently, that entire 'backyard' is under construction. Even the Mass Pike is being moved to facilitate it!

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
03-12-18 10:38 AM - Post#252321    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I think the other ADs got outsmarted by Penn in agreeing to have the tournament in the Palestra. It gives Penn a huge recruiting advantage insofar as they can tell all recruits that they play in the cathedral of Ivy basketball. And it is pretty well documented that there is on average around a six point advantage to being at home. So I would have the 1 and 2 seeds host the first game, with the highest remaining seed hosting the final. And if the other venues aren’t as large as the Palestra, so be it. Otherwise, just rename the tournament the Penn Invitational. PS, I do think that Betley was pretty clearly trapped by Harvard, although I was indifferent as to the outcome of the game.


 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 428

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Ivy tournament
03-12-18 10:51 AM - Post#252323    
    In response to Chet Forte

  • Chet Forte Said:
So I would have the 1 and 2 seeds host the first game, with the highest remaining seed hosting the final.



The league has repeatedly said that it wants to hold the men's and women's tournament at the same venue.

Until that changes, the options are 1) having it on an Ivy campus, or 2) having it at a neutral venue.

Edited by Go Green on 03-12-18 10:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1112

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-12-18 11:15 AM - Post#252333    
    In response to Go Green

GG, you keep saying that. The league has also said that the current structure was an experiment. Things can change, and things need to be improved/fixed.




 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 428

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Ivy tournament
03-12-18 11:21 AM - Post#252336    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
GG, you keep saying that. The league has also said that the current structure was an experiment. Things can change, and things need to be improved/fixed.






Glad to see you follow my posts!! And I will keep saying it until it sinks in to the Board's collective thinking. I went through something similar on the Voy Board consistently telling people to google the "Dayton Rule" when someone said he was afraid that Ivy football would go to D-III. Took years of perseverance, but I think everyone on the Board finally got it. No one has made the D-III prediction in a long while.

If you want my opinion, if we ever do the "higher seed" thing, it will be because the women feel that they are being shortchanged by being paired with the men's tournament, and want to go off and do their own thing. It won't be because a higher seed thinks it got screwed playing Penn at the Palestra. The latter is not a winning argument (literally, in fact).

Edited by Go Green on 03-12-18 11:22 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
LionFan 
Senior
Posts: 398

Reg: 11-07-06
03-12-18 11:25 AM - Post#252341    
    In response to Go Green

If the Big Ten and the ACC can have their tournaments in New York, why shouldn't the Ivy League hold its tournament in Indianapolis or Raleigh-Durham? Just sayin'.

 
Chip Bayers 
Postdoc
Posts: 4684
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
03-12-18 11:44 AM - Post#252346    
    In response to LionFan

  • Quote:
So I would have the 1 and 2 seeds host the first game, with the highest remaining seed hosting the final.



For example: you want a four seed to play in Philadelphia on Saturday, then when they get the upset, travel to Ithaca for a game Sunday. Which has to be an early game because of the selection process.

The league has said part of the purpose of having the dopey thing in one place, on a weekend, and for both men and women, is to minimize travel time for the student-athletes. Guess that’s right out the window.



 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1112

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
03-12-18 12:49 PM - Post#252388    
    In response to Chip Bayers

If you want to minimize travel, find a central location- not the southern outlier

 
 Page 1 of 2 ALL12
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

1639 Views




Copyright © 2004-2012 Basketball U. Terms of Use for our Site and Privacy Policy are applicable to you. All rights reserved.
Basketball U. and its subsidiaries are not affiliated in any way with any NCAA athletic conference or member institution.
FusionBB™ Version 2.1 | ©2003-2007 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.159 seconds.   Total Queries: 16   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0500) Eastern. Current time is 01:54 PM
Top