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Username Post: Voy Board        (Topic#21496)
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3440

Reg: 11-23-04
04-20-18 07:32 PM - Post#255618    

Spectator is reporting that first-year forwards Jaron Faulds and Myles Hanson have left the team.

?

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
04-20-18 08:15 PM - Post#255620    
    In response to Old Bear

We have a serious problem. What is going on?


 
cc66 
PhD Student
Posts: 1631

Reg: 10-09-09
04-20-18 08:52 PM - Post#255621    
    In response to Chet Forte

I wondet whether they left when the transfer in of Smoyer, anothet big man, was announced?

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
04-21-18 04:50 PM - Post#255632    
    In response to cc66

There is a very long string of tweets from one Coach Faulds today.


 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3440

Reg: 11-23-04
04-22-18 04:00 PM - Post#255645    
    In response to Chet Forte

What did he say?

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1790

Reg: 02-15-15
04-23-18 12:06 AM - Post#255656    
    In response to Old Bear

It was indeed a long string of tweets. Reading between the lines and summarizing....Faulds is leaving because the kid doesn't like the coach's style and thinks the coach demeans and yells at the players, isn't truthful, and runs the team with ego, among other things.



 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
04-23-18 08:12 AM - Post#255657    
    In response to PennFan10

The tweet is apparently from the father; at least that is my assumption. So is the next coach going to welcome a player whose father is this vocal? While there will always be a home for a 6’10” front court player with talent, his father did not do his son any favors. Bu all of this begs the question: is the criticism valid or not?


 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
04-23-18 12:30 PM - Post#255667    
    In response to Chet Forte

Yeah, the father has posted a few things in the past that are very pointed, but they seem to target any and all coaches who don't appear to be serving the players well. The timing could be indicative that he is referring to CU, but (regardless) he does make good points no matter what coaching he is referring to.

I spoke with both Faulds and Hanson this year and they both seem to be great young men, as well as talented ball players. You add these two departures with Andrew P. quitting the team, several upperclassmen not playing well and appearing like they've lost their confidence, Hickman's siblings' overt dissatisfaction, alumni voicing their concerns, and you do have to wonder wth is going on.

Also, I spoke with Faulds' father after one of the games and he seemed very reasonable. What he said to me made alot of sense and it all had to do with building young men up, instilling confidence, holding people accountable, and very positive - all good stuff. He wasn't even badmouthing the coaches, just talking in general. Last weekend, I talked with a guy who said the father is well connected in the AAU and HS coaching scene and well respected. The message I got was that he was reasonably and passionately advocating for all players being subjected to that style of coaching - not just his son.

Losing two top recruits from, possibly, the best recruiting class in CU's history, plus Andrew, plus losing a bunch of games they shouldn't have lost = trouble in Morningside... and it doesn't appear to be the players or the parents. I am not aware of everything going on, but none of those players appear to be living up to their potential (for whatever reason).


 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1790

Reg: 02-15-15
04-23-18 02:24 PM - Post#255669    
    In response to CUBballFan

It doesn't matter if the criticism is valid or if the guy is credible on the AAU circuit, etc,

It is a bad thing for your father to go on twitter and post what he posted, clearly aimed at Engles. True or not, another coach/program will have pause before taking on a kid with a vocal parent.

Maybe I'm old school but those tweets are not a positive for Fauld's future recruitment.

 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
04-23-18 03:16 PM - Post#255671    
    In response to PennFan10

I am old school, too, and am more concerned with why Faulds, Hanson, and Panayiotou all left within 9 months and why CU is underperforming than how it all unfolded. I’m sure the boys will all be just fine, including Faulds. I just hope we are, too.

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
04-23-18 06:56 PM - Post#255682    
    In response to CUBballFan

Peter Pilling is a very smart guy. I have confidence in his ability to build this program. Jim Engles is our coach next season, so whatever went wrong let’s hope he straightens it out. But I do not think that the elder Faulds did his son any favor by going public with a serious of intemperate tweets directed at the coach. That crossed a line that IMHO should not have been crossed.


 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
Voy Board
04-23-18 07:17 PM - Post#255684    
    In response to Chet Forte

I totally agree. Peter is a very smart guy, but I don’t remember seeing Faulds’ Dad ever naming Engles, CU, or any of the coaches in any of his (negative) coaching comments and all I see now is good messages. I thought he made it clear what he thought good coaching vs. bad coaching was - just his opinion. Could’ve been way worse if he wanted to actually target them.

Anyway, my main concern is no longer Faulds, Hanson, or Panatouyio (I wish them well and am sorry they left), but rather what caused them all to leave and why our team finished 8-19. Something is obviously wrong and, IMO, if Engles did cross some of those lines, that is concerning. If he didn’t, I’m sure things will improve quickly. If he has, and more people leave, we need to be less concerned with who said what or how they said it and more concerned with who did/didn’t do what and where the real problem lies. Just my opinion, but I am still concerned that something doesn’t seem right.

Edited by CUBballFan on 04-23-18 07:22 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
Re: Voy Board
04-23-18 08:11 PM - Post#255687    
    In response to CUBballFan

Just received a screenshot of this post on young Faulds’ FB page - written by the Hanson parents. Two different families alluding to culture issues.

“By now many of you have read or heard that Myles has asked for his release from the Columbia basketball program and is seeking to transfer..... Myles wrestled all year and Brian and I spent many hours listening and talking it through with him, not taking any decisions lightly..... but I keep coming back to and leaning on truth. The truths are that this program did not embrace the values and principles that he has sought to embrace and emulate in his life. That the team, nor leadership, were in unison and that is essential to teamwork, respect, and communication. That Columbia is a phenomenal school/education, but he was very successful there and he can move on and get a great education somewhere else too. That Myles' freshman teammates are brothers/friendships that will last a lifetime and are not bound by the walls and confines of Columbia. That Myles was more brave than I could ever have imagined being at 19 to stand for what he believes in and resonates with him.

Myles and his roommate, Jaron, chose to leave together and we are praying they both find the right ‘home’."

 
Dr. V 
PhD Student
Posts: 1401

Reg: 11-21-04
04-23-18 09:55 PM - Post#255696    
    In response to CUBballFan

Does it occur to you , CUBballFan, that publicly airing a witch's brew of innuendo, speculation and just nonsense is harmful to the program that you profess to support?

Basic facts: in today's game, transfers are common and a fact of life. The other team I follow, Michigan, has had 3 outgoing transfers in the last 3 years and two incoming. The usual reasons are, belief that a player can get more playing time in a different program; a coach telling a player that the program will not offer him a 5th year (two of Michigan's outgoing transfers were of this type, one transferred to Purdue and another to Ohio St.). No one got hysterical. It's part of the game today.

Another basic fact: coaches are given 3-5 years to show what they can do. The Ivies tend to 5, high majors sometimes cut ties after 3, but rarely. I've once explained why BB coaches are given that length of time. If you need a refresher, I'll provide same.

If a couple of shots had gone in or if a couple of players' on-court decisions had been different, we'd be having a different conversation. We were badly hurt by the injuries our team had because we were thin, talent-wise. When things don't work out as well as hoped for, some people point fingers and whine, others buckle down and work hard to get better.

Claiming, as you did, that no one improved is just nonsense. Adlesh improved greatly and Smith improved significantly.

There's nothing wrong with choosing to get a divorce--things just didn't work out for whatever reason. I wish both players well. And if someone has a concrete, specific complaint about something that is significant, that's what the AD is there for. But leaving with vague complaints about culture or then, as fans, trying to expand on such vagueness with baseless rumination, is, to put it diplomatically, unwise.


 
Columbia 37P6 
PhD Student
Posts: 1561

Reg: 02-14-06
04-23-18 11:11 PM - Post#255700    
    In response to Dr. V

Some more facts would certainly be helpful

 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
Voy Board
04-24-18 02:32 AM - Post#255707    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

A witches brew of innuendo, speculation, and nonsense? Um, okay, Dr. V. Not sure whether your lab is in Hogwarts or Columbia, but the analysis of my comments re: the program i have supported for years, not just professed to support, is interesting.

I haven’t seen anyone get “hysterical” about the transferring of those three players or the culture issues; but, like many others, I am very concerned with recent developments. They are starting to confirm some of my own suspicions based on what I have seen and experienced from the stands, alumni events, and basketball functions. I also have a child (who currently attends CU and who knows some of the upperclassmen), as well as a friend who is close to the situation. All of these first-hand accounts would qualify as “basic facts”.

Thank you for offering me a refresher, but I am well-versed in Lions basketball and not impressed with what I’ve seen these past two years. I am also well aware of the transfer epidemic that many universities and 700+ athletes/year are dealing with and many of those are because of playing time, 5th year options, changing of coaching staff, etc. But, transfers that result from some of the issues we are facing are not to be simply swept under the rug. If they are true, we should not be wasting another 1-3 years just because that’s the norm.

Also, I have had the pleasure of watching Q, Meisner, Castlin, and Hickman over the past few years and I think they are all playing less consistent, and with less confidence, than in previous years (same with Smith and Hunter). Coincidence?

I said we underperformed. I didn’t say no one got better (because Q and Tape did). From what I saw, the players did work their butts off to try to fix things. None of them pointed fingers and whined. All of your examples re: what could have led to us having a different conversation had to do with the players (making shots, making better decisions, etc). True, but coaching, chemistry, and culture should also play a huge role in the conversation - or we may very well be having the same conversation next March and the years to come.

I, too, respect Peter and, as the AD, I believe it is wise for him to really dig into what is going on. I am sure more facts will emerge one way or another and time will tell.

Edited by CUBballFan on 04-24-18 02:37 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Columbia 37P6 
PhD Student
Posts: 1561

Reg: 02-14-06
04-24-18 08:46 AM - Post#255716    
    In response to CUBballFan

Gentlemen, you are making both making good points, but the clear winner of the debate is CuBballFan whose critique I agree with in its entirety. Dr. V tends to be an apologist for everyone connected with a losing program and is afraid that too much criticism of the coaches and players will make matters worse and scare potential recruits away. Yes, those are valid concerns, but I would submit that you must take risks like that to build a great program. Of course, Peter Pilling did just that with Columbia Football bringing in a great coach in Al Bagnoli who quickly turned everything around. One way or another, Pilling will make certain that happens again with Columbia Basketball.

 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
Voy Board
04-24-18 11:57 AM - Post#255747    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

Dr. V,

I read your post re: “Fans, coaches, and teams” and thought a lot of people made great points. I appreciate the fact that you are well-versed in the players’ stats, but I agree with what many of the others said about the “honeymoon coming to an end” (Columbia 37P6) because the stats many of us care about the most is our 10-18 record in conference play and 19-35 overall record over the past two seasons. And like Chet Forte said, we went 0-fer on the road this year.

Some common themes that were voiced then, which now seem to be a premonition to this past week:

Columbia Alum recognized long ago the appalling defense and slow/lack of player development.

cc66 also mentioned the long list of players not developing (from freshman to seniors), as well as Engles’ “manner and affect”, lack of emotional connection, and players not appearing to like him.

Sagatius mentioned the sub-par player development and lack of apparent big man coach (Agel?). He also made good points about us being as good or better than our opponents for much of the games, but not being able to sustain. Is that conditioning, confidence, coaching...?

Chet Forte also made excellent points about our players performing well early in the season (Villanova & PSU were both respectable and most of the players, including the freshman, looked good, but then what happened?). And his comments about the coach being “the engine, the inspiration, the leader” who “demonstrates passion, inspires players, and improves existing players” are good points and sound very much like the recent posts. The fact that Coach Al is “friendly to the fan base, passionate on the sidelines, has built a fantastic group of assistants, and has players who would run through a wall” is a far cry from what we are seeing on the hardwood.

All of these comments from the blog in early March now seem to be even more accurate given the recent developments. Plus, if you add in Ray Curren’s Twitter comment from 2/26/18: “I was banned by Engles after they lost to Stetson last year..... so beware.” and Dan Gelston’s Twitter comment from 11/10/17: “Columbia coach Jim Engles invites a couple of stunned student journalists to ride back with the team on the bus. ‘Just don’t talk to me’”..... we now have a wide variety of people who have all identified red flags with Engles. The 3 transfers in 9 months and recent parent comments just seem to be affirmations of the concerns we’ve all been expressing along the way.

Yes, Columbia 37P6, I am sure Peter Pilling will fix this eventually, one way or another, just like he did with Coach Al and our football program.

Sorry for the 1000 word posts, JadwinGeorge!


Edited by CUBballFan on 04-24-18 12:00 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Columbia 37P6 
PhD Student
Posts: 1561

Reg: 02-14-06
04-24-18 03:50 PM - Post#255806    
    In response to CUBballFan

I believe it would be beneficial to all of us who deeply care about Columbia Basketball if you e-mailed a copy of your excellent post to Peter. Athletic Directors may not visit on line sports forums, but they certainly read their e-mail.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3649

Age: 54
Reg: 07-07-09
04-25-18 09:54 AM - Post#255851    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

'm not going to wade into most of what's on this thread as I have no inside information. I do have a couple of observations.

I'm a stats/numbers guy for the most part. That said, the truly serious and successful people in advanced analytics have embraced the concept that team cohesiveness has a positive influence on a team even though we haven't been able to quantify it yet. I'm wondering about the cohesiveness of this current team.

I went to quite a number of games at Levien during the Smith years and those teams were cohesive, and especially so when Hartman was on the staff. I like sitting right behind the bench during the early non-conference games when Levien is mostly empty and it's possible to see and hear what's going on. I always left impressed with the way the players responded to Hartman's instruction. I was also impressed with the way the players stood up for each other.

There was a play this past year against Penn that Quakers03 and I have debated a few times in which Luke Meisner blocked and then stared down Caleb Wood after a throw-in. While we probably still agree to disagree on Meisner's role, one thing we do agree on - it was a turning point in the game. Penn's entire bench stood up for Wood while no one on Columbia did anything. Penn came out of that play motivated, scoring on the ensuing thwow-in and never looking back. It was instructive in that it demonstrated how much of a cohesive team Penn was and that Columbia - from Engels on down - wasn't.


 
Dr. V 
PhD Student
Posts: 1401

Reg: 11-21-04
Voy Board
04-25-18 12:38 PM - Post#255862    
    In response to TheLine

Epistemology; common sense and discretion; and shooting ourselves in the foot.

One of the indicators of a good education, which we all supposedly received, is being aware of what we know and what we don't know, more specifically, being able to distinguish between what we actually know, i.e., facts, from suspicions/opinions we may form (on the basis of SOME evidence/information, but not enough to put us in a position to know that something for a fact), and sheer speculation (as when we speculate about whom our team is going to draft).

Do I know that the current coaching staff is going to lead us to winning seasons and challenges for championships? No. Do I know that it won't? No. Why? Simply because, again, two seasons and one recruiting class does not provide enough information/evidence for me or anyone else to know. That is why, e.g., Ivy coaches get 4-5 years to prove what they can do.

Do any of the posters on this board know? No, but they seem to think that their impressions/suspicions/op inions rise to the level of knowing, which they're proud to proclaim in public.

It is near impossible to predict who will turn out to be a successful head coach. Since 1971 I've seen more Columbia football and basketball coaches come and go than I can count. In each case we all got excited by the newcomer and held high hopes, until the next one. Predicting who will be a successful head coach is next to impossible because coaching is hard. You have to be a salesman, manager, strategist, psychologist and a couple of other things, and it's next to impossible to predict who is or is not skilled in all of those areas highly enough to succeed. One of the few, if not the only, indicator of future success is past success as a head coach on the same level.

Engles was an assistant at Columbia, so knows the league and the terrain with all of its peculiarities. He was unusually successful as a D1 head coach in his previous position. That prompts me to believe that he has a better than average chance of being successful at CU now. I've explained before why I think we didn't have a better record.

Now on to common sense and exercise of discretion. If you see an acquaintance across the room with his zipper unzipped or her slip showing, do you shout across the room, "Hey Johnny/Marry, your zipper/slip. . . "? Common sense and discretion dictate that you do not. You walk across the room and tell that person in private. That is doubly so if you have a relationship with that person and/or care about person, as we all claim to care about the success of our program.

How is sharing any of our impressions/suspicions in public helpful to our program? It's fine to share them when they are positive. When they are negative, we are simply shooting ourselves in the foot, or in our case both feet as we seem to want to do it with gusto. Do we really want to engage in self-fulfilling prophesies? Do we really want to make it more difficult to recruit new players or retain and maintain leadership authority
with existing players? All for the price of deluding ourselves into thinking that we know something when in fact we don't?

The criticism cited by CUBball is lack of player development. To repeat yet again, from a year ago to this last year, the only two years of the present regime, two players improved and one regressed; several key players were hurt, so one can't make any judgments there, yet our wise men have definitively concluded that there was no player development.

I agree that Hartman was a very good and effective coach, and I was really sorry to see him leave. That said, the incident involving Meisner and Wood and the presence/absence of cohesion is not as TheLine described. The out of bounds play happened in front of the Penn bench, so it's not surprising that it was the Penn bench that reacted the way it did. The CU bench on numerous occasions during the season when an exciting or momentum shifting play reacted similarly.

Edited by Dr. V on 04-25-18 12:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3649

Age: 54
Reg: 07-07-09
04-25-18 01:09 PM - Post#255864    
    In response to Dr. V

I used to believe that.

Then realized my suspension of disbelief at what was going on at Penn under a certain coach was part of the problem. I wasn't helping matters, I was being complicit in the erosion of a program.

I'm now older and wiser.

it bothered me that not one player and not one coach defended Meisner on that play while he got it from every single person on the Penn bench. For crying out loud, you defend your players, and you defend your teammate. That didn't happen. Why? Do you think Rosie or Maodo or Barber or Kyle would have stood for that? Eff no.



 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
04-26-18 06:18 AM - Post#255901    
    In response to TheLine

Dr. V.,

I love the zipper analogy and may have to use it at some point - if you don’t mind.

In pursuit of the common sense you suggest, I’ve recently reached out to and spoken with more than one person currently involved (in one way or another) with the program. I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight. Because these folks truly care about these young men and the program, they’ve confirmed that:

In between our 1 point loss at Cornell (in which Faulds sat on the bench for 40 minutes and watched Gettings scored 25 points) and the Harvard @ CU game, I guess Faulds did respectfully and appropriately ask Coach Engles if he knew that his “zipper was unzipped”. Faulds was allegedly told he didn’t play @ Cornell because he was a “defensive liability”. Interesting explanation given the fact that our individual and team defense was embarrassing. Putting Faulds in the game to guard Gettings seemed like a no-brainer. Was Engles coaching to win or coaching to prove a point?

Anyway, I guess Faulds’ meetings with Engles ended relatively well and led to some productive follow-up meetings with (at least) Smith, Killingsworth, & Castlin. I heard Smith was very candid about things, too. They all confirmed what Faulds had reported to Engles - that his barn door was, indeed, open and they thought it would be wise if he shut it, so nothing got out.

Over the next two days, Engles was more positive, relaxed, and emotionally connected (than usual) and the players were more optimistic that the culture was changing for the better. Maybe it was due to actually listening to and communicating with his players. Maybe it was due to the fact that it was Alumni Weekend and Engles was giving it his best. Regardless of the reason, I was in the stands that weekend and fortunate enough to witness us defeat Harvard by 7 and Dartmouth by 3. Correlation between coach’s attitude/behaviors and the team’s performance?

Unfortunately, I was told that, with each loss, the positivity faded, the two-way communication stopped, Engles became more agitated and detached..... and the team seemed to regress. Although the Ivy League Tourney was within our grasp, we finished the season losing 6 of the next 8 games and watched “Ivy Madness” slip away. Correlation?

In addition to the players’ efforts, “common sense and discretion” were also used by assistant coaches/b-ball personnel to fix things privately because they, too, care about the success of the program. Neither the players, nor the coaches were able to convince Engles that “Together Everyone Achieves More”. Instead, his response was evidently “F*** ‘em! Anyone who doesn’t like it can leave.”

At what point does the “keep things quiet” and “handle things in house” not seem like common sense? At what do those parents, us alumni, and others with a vested interest, start to become more vocal and say “screw discretion, enough is enough”?

So, at the most important levels, it does appear that many people gave Engles an opportunity to “check his fly”. Your analogy goes both ways, Dr. V. The receiver of the information must also be willing to actually hear what others are saying. If they truly respect those trying to look out for them (and the program), they will listen intently and take action. And that is “doubly so if they have a relationship with those people and/or care about them, as we all claim to care about the success of our program.”

But if the receiver continues to leave their zipper undone, private matters will eventually become public. Engles, our Head Coach, could have prevent this indecent exposure a long time ago.

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
04-26-18 01:53 PM - Post#255937    
    In response to CUBballFan

My information is that the administration believes that Engles is the right guy, that he will be back, that we had bad chemistry this year, but that Engles was not the problem. I am just reporting and not editorializing.


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3237

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
04-26-18 02:18 PM - Post#255942    
    In response to Chet Forte

If that's really what they're saying, then Columbia fans should probably buckle up for a rough ride over the next couple of years. It's the head coach's job to set the tone. To say that the team had bad chemistry, but that this had nothing to do with the coach, makes no sense to me.

 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
04-26-18 09:27 PM - Post#255969    
    In response to Silver Maple

Agreed. There are way too many people, who have first-hand knowledge and clean track records when it comes to integrity, saying the same things and they almost all lead back to Engles.

Like Dr. V said....... people who truly care about others stand up for them. Wouldn’t it be safe to assume that they would also defend them, especially against false accusations? If the administration (or anyone reasonable) is saying Engles is not the problem, then why haven’t ANY recent players, coaches, parents, or basketball support staff stepped forward and passionately and publicly defended Engles???


 
Columbia 37P6 
PhD Student
Posts: 1561

Reg: 02-14-06
04-27-18 10:23 AM - Post#256004    
    In response to CUBballFan

Excellent article in the Columbia Daily Spectator about how softball coach, Jennifer Teague, turned things around during her four year tenure at Columbia. Maybe the Columbia Basketball Coaches should read the story. For softball, it's a combination of great teamwork, great coaching, great recruiting and overall smarts. Having watched seven or eight of the Lady Lion softball games this year, I would also say that Teague is an outstanding game coach.



https://www.columbiaspectator.com/sports/2018/04/2...

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18849

Reg: 11-21-04
04-27-18 10:41 AM - Post#256010    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

You're not seriously comparing softball to basketball, are you?

Look, I know it's frenzy feeding here, but let's get real. Kyle Smith had a 20+ win team with 4 seniors that frankly, underperformed. That team should have won a title. Engles came in having lost 46 points of scoring and 17 rebounds per game. Don't underestimate the impact of losing those guys on Kyle Smith deciding to leave. Engles came in with a pretty bare plate other than Petrasek. He brought in Mike Smith (a player I love) but just doesn't have enough talent yet. You have to give a coach at this level at least 4 years to build a team from scratch, which is what he has to do. Yes, it has to be disappointing that CU lost so many close games, but conjuring conspiracy theories among players who aren't good enough to compete at a winning level really is unhelpful. You have to be patient.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5238

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
04-27-18 11:56 AM - Post#256025    
    In response to palestra38

Tough to assign credit for Mike Smith, FWIW. Kyle recruited Mike Smith and got the commitment. Engles definitely did work to keep him with Columbia through the transition, but Mike committed to Kyle not Engles.

I also disagree that the 2016 Columbia team underperformed. It finished third behind a Yale team that was Top 50 in Pomeroy, won a tournament game and nearly pulled off a stunning comeback against Duke for a spot in the Sweet 16 and a Princeton team that got an at-large bid to the NIT, which is not easy. Columbia went 10-0 versus teams not named Yale and Princeton, and while it might have lost two disappointing games to the Tigers, it was outclassed by Yale twice. No shame in that, that Yale team was one of the best in recent memory.

I share the concerns of many of the Columbia posters on this board.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18849

Reg: 11-21-04
04-27-18 12:21 PM - Post#256029    
    In response to mrjames

Actually, part of my point was that Smith left late in the cycle, and Engles only has had one year of recruiting from a pretty barren landscape he inherited. He has shown in the past he can recruit to a Godforsaken school without a conference---he has to be given a chance now. The only real possible disagreement we may have is if you believe that there was enough talent there to win last year.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3649

Age: 54
Reg: 07-07-09
04-27-18 02:30 PM - Post#256046    
    In response to palestra38

You're missing the point of the thread, friend.

Please go back and read from the top.


 
Columbia 37P6 
PhD Student
Posts: 1561

Reg: 02-14-06
04-27-18 05:21 PM - Post#256056    
    In response to TheLine

palestra38, my friend, you are having a very bad day at least on this Board.

First, you stated that Columbia's best basketball player, Mike Smith, was recruited by Jim Engles. Wrong. As Mr. James noted, Kyle Smith recruited him.

Second, you stated that the 2016 Columbia team under performed. Wrong again, per Mr. James.

Third, you stated that Kyle Smith left Columbia for the University of San Francisco because his key players graduated. Wrong again. Kyle made no secret that he and his wife loved Columbia and New York City, but they had very strong family ties to Northern California.

Fourth, you stated that Kyle Smith left Jim Engles a pretty bare plate other than Petrasek. Wrong again. The plate also included Smith, Meisner, Tape, Hickman, Castlin and several others.

Fifth, you stated that Engles is entitled to have a four year honeymoon because he successfully recruited players to NJIT because you consider NJIT to be a "Godforsaken school." Wrong again. Good logic suggests, that if NJIT is indeed a "Godforsaken school," than perhaps his recruiting success there was overrated because believe it or not neither Columbia, Penn, Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown and Cornell are "Godforsaken schools." At this time, there can be no denying that Engles' record at Columbia the past two years speaks for itself and that my friend, speaks volumes, and those volumes don't speak well.



 
rbg 
Masters Student
Posts: 847

Reg: 10-20-14
04-27-18 06:20 PM - Post#256059    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

In reviewing this thread, there are several posts that focus on behavior issues.

Some posts talk about tweets from Coach Faluds that are general comments about coaches that don't serve their players well.

One mentioned a Facebook post from Myles Hanson's mother that noted that the program did not embrace the values and principles that he has sought to embrace and emulate in his life.

CUBballFan had an interesting 4/23 post that discussed the coache's less than positive interactions with his players that supposedly was relayed from people close to the program.

So there are several cryptic posts and some unnamed comments from people more on the inside than most, or all, of us. These comments would seem to go beyond simple comments from many of us of about a particular coach's recruiting or in-game tactical abilities.

Brown has had a number of people leave the program over the last few years, but I cannot recall any cryptic negative comments about the staff. Coach Allen and Coach Courtney were let go by Penn and Cornell, respectively, but it seems that people from both schools spoke highly of both men.

Just yesterday, former Penn women's basketball assistant coach Chris Day resigned from the head coaching position at the University of Vermont. According to the press reports, the school had recently started an investigation of the coach due to his verbal interactions with players.

http://www.wcax.com/content/sports/BREAKI NG-UVM-is...

Columbia football is just a few year removed from having to fire former Coach Pete Mangurian due to questionable behavior towards his players.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/report -c...

The comments mentioned from the more-inside people during this thread should, at least, be looked into by the school to make sure that there are no problems with leadership. If everything is good, then all can focus on improving on last year's results and moving up in the conference standings. If all is not good, then school leadership would have some serious decisions to make.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18849

Reg: 11-21-04
04-28-18 08:38 AM - Post#256067    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

CU37P6, my friend, one of the benefits of having attended the world renowned Columbia University School of Law was that I learned that talk is cheap when there is an evidentiary record. Well, was I the only one who thought that the '15-'16 team underperformed as you attempt to proffer? Let's look at two posts of a certain poster prior to that season. First, let's look at one just after the prior season had ended:

03-08-15 10:29 PM - Post#185054

"OK, now that the season is completed we can start throwing around some ideas for next year. First, Columbia should have an outstanding team led by its two great senior ballplayers, Maodo Lo and Alex Rosenberg. In my opinion,Lo is a possible NBA draft choice and, Rosenberg is at least a possible Ivy League POY or better; Second, we should be significantly stronger at point guard with the two incoming star quality prospects, CJ Davia and Quinton Adlesh; Third, with this year's probable Ivy League ROY, Kyle Castlin, and the incoming stellar freshman, Rodney Hunter, joining up with Lo, Castlin and one or both of the freshman guards, Columbia should have a wonderful group of guards who will give their opponents nightmares; Fourth, the Lions wills also have Nate Hickman and Kendall Jackson, both of whom improved dramatically this season; Fifth, the 6'7" Rosenberg returns up front at forward, backed up by Issac Cohen, a small, but tenacious rebounder, who, hopefully, will learn to shot much better in the off-seasonn. The Lions will also have the 6'8" Chris McComber, who is an excellent outside shooter, but needs to improve his overall game, and two very promising freshmen, John Sica and Peter Barba. In high school, Sica and Barba mostly received acclaim for their outside shooting, but if they want to see action immediately then they need to think of themselves as power forwards in college and gain about 15-20 pounds each of muscle in the next sixth months; Sixth, the center position is our only problem, and whichever of the four likely candidates--Petrasek, Coby, Voss and Eberle-- works the hardest in the off-season is likely to become the starter; Seventh, I see Coach Kyle Smith changing the offense dramatically so that the Lions will be playing at a much higher tempo, specially in transition, and not relying as much on shooting threes. I would expect the Lions to be a fast-breaking team that will capitalize on the speed and athleticism of its players. Finally, I have omitted Grant Mullins from my little outlook because I am uncertain of his status. However, in my opinion, he is a very good player and I hope to see him return healthy and motivated to win a championship in his senior season at Columbia."

Then, in a thread on the '15-'16 season, that SAME POSTER wrote:

10-24-15 06:35 PM - Post#193789
In response to cc66

"Depth is a wonderful thing as is competition for playing time. Davis, Hunter, Adlesh and Meisner may have to wait their turn, but I suspect they will all play vital roles in our winning the Ivy League Championship this year."


That astute poster? You. This is the problem I continually identify when Mike James and others attempt to use Pomeroy ratings AFTER THE FACT as some kind of evidence that other teams were objectively better going in (and thus the losing team did not underperform). All that rating indicates is the play on the court after the fact, not how they were predicted to play before the fact. Anyone can look at KenPom and say Yale and Princeton were better teams and indeed they were. But clearly, YOU expected a championship and frankly, I thought CU would be right there with all those returning seniors. So while I can understand someone who AT THAT TIME predicted CU to finish third and losing all four games to Yale and Princeton criticizing my post, you were not the right guy to do it.

You're a great fan, but let's stay consistent.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18849

Reg: 11-21-04
04-28-18 08:41 AM - Post#256068    
    In response to palestra38

Let me also add that Engles had to convince Smith to come to CU after the coaching change--many recruits go elsewhere after a coaching change. Smith did not. He has to get credit for that recruit, after all, Smith could have followed Smith (Kyle that is).

 
Columbia 37P6 
PhD Student
Posts: 1561

Reg: 02-14-06
04-28-18 10:58 PM - Post#256074    
    In response to palestra38

palestra38, wow, I am incredibly impressed by your research which indeeds shows conclusively my inconsistency on the point of Columbia's alleged underperformance in the year 2015-15. I am humbled, humiliated, but also quite flattered that anyone would so brilliantly go to the record to prove his point in this computer age. I admit defeat by you, accept your wisdom on this most crucial of points in mankind's history. However, the irony is that having admitted defeat, I take some solace that the person who I lost to graduated from the same world renowned law school did, namely Columbia Law School. I hope one day to have the pleasure of meeting my colleague in person!

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
04-29-18 08:43 AM - Post#256075    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

Re the ‘15-‘16 season, we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in the Princeton game when we let a big lead slip away and then when the Princeton SG hit on a long, long three pointer as time expired. That tied the game and after racing to a lead in OT we let that one slip away. We were calling for the now-sainted Kyle Smith’s scalp for not foulingPrinceton before they could get off the three pointer. Had we won that Princeton game we had a good chance of taking the league.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 18849

Reg: 11-21-04
04-29-18 10:19 AM - Post#256078    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

LOL---it's no different searching this site than using Westlaw to identify a case supporting your point. It only took a couple of minutes to find your predictions.

I would be happy to meet sometime and bring together a group of supporters of all the Ivy teams (Indeed, I initially thought that was the idea of the Ivy Tournament). Having attended CU for law school (and playing a regular twice weekly game on center court at Levien at noon), it always was my second choice--just that I called the games when at Penn as an undergrad (can't believe my 40th reunion is coming up in 2 weeks!). I always enjoy the almost unabashed optimism of the Columbia fans--which is why I find the current topic somewhat upsetting given I don't think Engles has been given a chance to recruit his own guys yet.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1125

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
04-29-18 12:25 PM - Post#256080    
    In response to Chet Forte

As for the the thrust of this topic, Columbia peaked in 2015-16 largely on 4 very good seniors. Hard for any coach to follow that up. Mitch Henderson just suffered through a similar phenomena and Amaker will face the same obstacle when the 7 rising Juniors graduate.

Without going too far off base, the 2016 home implosion against Princeton was crushing. But Princeton didn't win the league. 13-1 and top 50 Yale finished three games above Columbia (13-3 vs 10-4).

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4605

Reg: 11-22-04
04-29-18 08:24 PM - Post#256086    
    In response to CUBballFan

Admittedly, I only saw one Columbia game in person this year, at the Palestra. But what struck me in that game was how Faulds could not guard AJ Brodeur, and how my impression was that Columbia arguably lost the game because of that specific matchup. Based on that match, I would expect that he would have worlds of trouble with Stone Gettings, who can play outside better than Brodeur can. To me, Faulds needs to be on the floor against centers who are more rooted to the middle (or aren't threats away from the basket). He should be in the floor against a Chris Lewis. Or against Penn if Rothschild is on the flloor. But Gettings to me looks like a brutal matchup for him.



 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
04-29-18 11:14 PM - Post#256091    
    In response to SomeGuy

It was obvious the neither Faulds nor Tape guarded Brodeur past the free throw line in the first half. Depite Brodeur killing us from 3, they followed the scouting report and coaches orders - to let him shoot from the outside. To Engles' credit, he made adjustments at halftime and both Faulds and Tape defended Brodeur much better in the 2nd. That loss had more to do with a crappy first half scouting report and the fact that we shot 6/25 (24%) from the behind the 3-point line and, as was often the case, we played terrible perimeter defense.

I thought Smith's 11/23 shooting and 27 points; Faulds' 3/5 shooting, 5 rebounds, block, and steal (17 minutes); and Stefanini's 9 points, 4 rebounds, 2 steals (21 minutes); were three of the bright spots in that tough loss.

Also if you fast-forward to the Penn @ Columbia game, you could tell that the Brodeur adjustment carried over. Faulds played 22 minutes and he and Tape held Brodeur to 7 made baskets and 0 three pointers. Although Brodeur still played well, the game plan and defense on him were respectable.

I agree that Faulds is better when matched up with bigs in the paint, but not to match up Faulds against Gettings at all when he scores 25 and they beat us by one is simply inexcusable.

 
rbg 
Masters Student
Posts: 847

Reg: 10-20-14
05-01-18 10:43 PM - Post#256270    
    In response to CUBballFan

Mr. Faulds clarified that his recent twitter comments about coaches were general criticism of bad H.S., college and AAU coaches who take advantage of athletes. The comments were absolutely not about Columbia.

https://twitter.com/CoachFaulds/status/99 112324702...

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
05-03-18 10:48 AM - Post#256326    
    In response to rbg

So the timing was a mere coincidence.


 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
05-03-18 04:44 PM - Post#256354    
    In response to Chet Forte

I appreciated @CoachFaulds' clarification (that he wasn't simply talking about CU's program, but rather all coaches and programs that do those things) - but those examples could absolutely still include CU.

As far as the timing, maybe it wasn't just coincidence. But, I care less about the timing of tweets and more about the fact that many people close to the program have serious concerns about what has been going on for the past two years..... and they aren't typical concerns you hear about during normal transitions.

Also, over the same two year span, I found it interesting that @CoachFaulds' Twitter account does have a long track record of being positive in tone. That guy has tweeted/retweeted more recognition, praise, and props to CU's athletes (from a variety of CU sports) than almost anyone - except our athletic department and program itself. IMHO, the messages speak for themselves and what his intent is. As for some of the others in question, I'm not feeling very reassured.

 
rbg 
Masters Student
Posts: 847

Reg: 10-20-14
07-02-18 08:20 AM - Post#258403    
    In response to CUBballFan

Jaron Faulds has announced that he is transferring to the University of Michigan. He will have to sit out the 2018-2019 season, but he can still practice with the team. Faulds still has three seasons of eligibility. He will be a preferred walk-on and look to eventually earn a scholarship.

https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/index.ssf/2018/06...

https://www.btpowerhouse.com/2018/6/30/17520654/co ...

https://gbmwolverine.com/2018/06/30/michigan-b aske...



 
rbg 
Masters Student
Posts: 847

Reg: 10-20-14
07-03-18 05:20 PM - Post#258456    
    In response to rbg

One more item on Faulds, from the UM Hoops blog.

https://umhoops.com/2018/07/02/jaron-faul ds-takes-...

- “It really appealed to me, being in the Ivy League and being the Ivy League student, the Ivy League athlete and everything,” Faulds told UM Hoops on Sunday. “But yeah, just through the whole process, I was just thinking, ‘What’s a place with great culture, great teammates, coaches, just overall, what’s gonna prepare the best for when I’m done with basketball? When the ball stops bouncing, which school is gonna prepare me the best?’ ”

US News and World Report ranks Columbia in a tie for fifth in national universities. There aren’t many better places to get someone ready for life after basketball.

Faulds knew that. This wasn’t a case of going somewhere with the intention of leaving after a year — he planned to spend the next four years in New York City. His freshman year was solid on the court. Faulds averaged 4.5 points and 3.2 rebounds over 14.2 minutes per game, making the top-10 in the Ivy League for blocks. He felt he held his own.

“I played a decent amount for a freshman at Columbia,” Faulds said. “But I just realized that I wasn’t as happy as I had hoped to be.”

When asked, Faulds didn’t pinpoint a specific reason for wanting to leave Columbia. Part of it though, was being an 11-hour drive from home. He felt out of touch with family and friends, and wanted to reconnect. So when he got his release form, Faulds had a destination in mind. -

 
LionFan 
Senior
Posts: 398

Reg: 11-07-06
07-03-18 07:51 PM - Post#258459    
    In response to rbg

What do you make of the fact that the two guys who left were roomates?

 
cc66 
PhD Student
Posts: 1631

Reg: 10-09-09
07-04-18 06:11 PM - Post#258470    
    In response to LionFan

The virus didn't travel far?

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
07-06-18 06:46 PM - Post#258534    
    In response to cc66

OK. Take this for what it is worth. An administrator who I have known for years who happens to be plugged into the program told me after the season that the administration thinks Engels is the right guy and that the chemistry on the team was awful because a few of the players made it that way. Time will tell


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3237

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
07-06-18 07:53 PM - Post#258535    
    In response to Chet Forte

Saying that the coach has nothing to do with bad team chemistry strikes me as a very strange argument. I guess you're right-- time will tell. If the team seems more cohesive next season that will tell us something.

 
Dr. V 
PhD Student
Posts: 1401

Reg: 11-21-04
07-08-18 05:59 PM - Post#258557    
    In response to Silver Maple

If my eyesight still serves, what Chet Forte wrote is that someone close to the program informed that “the chemistry on the team was awful because a few of the players made it that way.” That’s different from the inaccurate claim that someone supposedly said that the “coach ha[d] nothing to do with it.”

When a new coach comes in, for some players it’s great, for others it’s like a getting a stepfather about whom they’re not crazy simply because he’s a stepfather. Sometimes veteran players think they know better as to what their role can or should be or feel entitled to PT and act accordingly. I would remind that Kyle Smith disinvited our formerly best player from the team for his senior season because, from what I had heard, there were significant differences in views about who would have what role on the team.

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2038

Reg: 03-02-08
07-09-18 08:18 PM - Post#258591    
    In response to Dr. V

Dr. V accurately and succinctly summed up what I had attempted to convey. What I do not know is whether the chemistry issue was attributable to returning players or new players.


 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1790

Reg: 02-15-15
07-09-18 09:37 PM - Post#258594    
    In response to Dr. V

  • Dr. V Said:
I would remind that Kyle Smith disinvited our formerly best player from the team for his senior season because, from what I had heard, there were significant differences in views about who would have what role on the team.



Seems to me exactly what Steve Donahue did a few years ago.


 
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