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Username Post: 2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?        (Topic#21570)
Streamers 
Postdoc
Posts: 2645
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
05-31-18 02:24 PM - Post#257454    
    In response to palestra38

I have been avoiding this topic as it has been beaten to death only to be revived by the curious decision to move the ILT to Yale. The downside of this has been well documented. The upside? A central location. Not very convincing.

I have always questioned the notion that home court is a huge deal. I have research ed what the gamblers (generally the best source for such things) think HCA means in real terms. The consensus is that across D1, it runs somewhere in the 3-4 point range. In the Ivy, it is somewhat less. One source pegs it at more than 2.5 with PU being the top at 3 and Penn at 2.6. It is debatable whether post-season changes these estimates materially.

There are a couple of things that generate the perception of HCA. One being the idea that you get an officiating advantage. I doubt any observer here thinks there was much in the way of home cooking in the first 2 ILTs. The other is crowd support. That one is hard to judge. Players I have talked to say that can work both ways. Certainly, for example, Darnell Foreman must have been buoyed by how the crowd was reacting to him this year, OTOH I have seen quite a few players over the years wilt under the pressure of post-season ball intensified by a crowd.

I can't help but conclude the Palestra is the only appropriate home for an ILT if we have to have one; but I also believe the ILT is a lousy idea in this format. If it were up to me, top 2 teams only play at #1 home court; same for the women. Need to make sure there are enough tie-breakers for 2nd though.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1825

Reg: 02-15-15
05-31-18 03:51 PM - Post#257463    
    In response to Streamers

Two things I'll say as I jump back in and then leave this conversation again:

1-It's really getting old to have the same people say the same thing the same way over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. The ILT is not going away anytime soon so please just deal with it.

2-The decision to go to Yale is mysterious and makes me think, not that the goals have changed, but that the people we thought were making the decisions are not. E.G. (and I have no idea here) it could be that ESPN is deciding the location and they want it in CT because the HQ is there, or because Yale is an iconic Ivy institution and they want to showcase the place (no one watching on TV will likely know that the capacity is a third of the Palestra).

I think more than anything else it's at Yale for a branding exercise. The ILT is, at it's core, an effort at re-branding the league (for any number of arguable reasons) and we can all disagree with the efficacy of the desired outcomes but from my point of view every decision the administration has made seems consistent with that goal when I look at through that lens.



 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 792

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
05-31-18 09:44 PM - Post#257491    
    In response to Streamers

Reality is that the Qaukers had a competitive advantage against Harvard last year especially in light of the final score. Yale will have a similar competitive advantage this upcoming year. The historical point spread established by Vegas for homecourt is well established over many many years. Does it diminish the Quakers win last year? -- time will tell.

As to next year's tournament, the only explanation provided by Robin so far is that the Yale gym is iconic. There is really no other explanation that she has provided and unfortunately that leads to conjecture and speculation.

The better approach for the IL might be to speak honestly as to the reasons behind these decisions. Everyone would understand if Robin speaks in measured terms but shee might gain some credibility if truthful information is provided, i.e. coaches stepped up and opposed a third year at the Palestra, etc. or whatever.

People who not drink the Kool-Aid of IvyMadness would welcome an explanation as to the thought process behind these decisions which appear to be illogical without a rational explanation. I have my doubts that Robin will pick up on the suggestion.

 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2273

Reg: 11-23-04
06-01-18 02:02 AM - Post#257499    
    In response to bradley

True. The Tournament is Ivy "Madness".

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3716

Age: 55
Reg: 07-07-09
2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 10:37 AM - Post#257520    
    In response to Tiger69

I'll state my opinion again before leaving the thread, not because I disrespect differing opinions (I have great respect for for Tiger69, SRP, sparman, bradley, HARVARDDADGRAD, etc.) but because I see no merit in continuing. I agree largely with PF10 that there's not any more to be said. And I too was reluctant to weigh in at all as it's the same people offering the same opinions. Which I'm now also guilty of.

1) I was vociferously against an Ivy tournament going back to the beginning of conversations about it. At the time it was Penn and Princeton voices vs. the rest of the league. mrjames posted an article way back when that opened my eyes - it made a compelling argument that the winner of the conference 14 game championship was not necessarily the team most likely to excel in the NCAA's. It didn't entirely sway me at the time but it did catch my attention.

2) I kept an open mind the 1st tournament year. I found myself caught up in the drama of which team would land the fourth bid. It made every game matter. It didn't hurt that my 2 teams were in the hunt, but I also noticed how hard other teams (Dartmouth, looking at you in particular) were also playing. I thought the tournament itself was a great success for the league - well played games throughout. It changed my opinion.

3) Besides voices on this board, who is against a tournament? I've haven't heard any. Have any of those of you who are well connected heard anything negative? If no, then those of you who want to turn back the clock are in a distinct minority about this. I'm particularly skeptical of old people forcing their opinions onto the younger generation. I resented it when I was younger and promised myself not to become a bitter know-it-all old man. Although many would say I haven't been entirely successful avoiding bitter old man syndrome, I believe I've been more successful at it than others have been!

4) I acknowledge there are logistical issues for a tournament that the league is going to have to work through because there's only one on-campus arena that checks off all boxes and it's unfair to make that the permanent home. I think we're going to have to be patient. Right now I'd favor rotating the tournament across all campuses provided that's feasible - let's see how next year goes. Having the tournament at the #1 seed's home court has some merit though it probably requires the league to split into separate men's and women's tournaments (and what happens if the same college is 1st seed for both?) . A neutral court has its own issues - I'm not sold on Bridgeport or Mohegan being better venues than on-campus arenas.

5) My opinion stems a lot from being a very proud owner of a Columbia degree and a proud follower of Lions basketball - sometimes to the annoyance of my Penn basketball friends. I've attended more games at Levien than the Palestra for the last few years. I like that the tournament has put more on the line for B-C-C-D games - that's good for the league IMO.

6) I'm not sure whether I'm going to be hit with any gratuitous accusations (LO - looking at you) but I'm unlikely to return to respond. I don't feel like I have to justify my opinion any more than I already have. I hope we know each other well enough to not always question motivations. I understand the feeling of those who do not like the conference tournament and respect your opinion . I just happen to disagree. No hard feelings.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19003

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: 2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 10:57 AM - Post#257528    
    In response to TheLine

I certainly understand your opinion and also understand the tournament is here to stay. What I don't understand is the rhetoric that this is old guys trying to force their opinion on younger people. Where on earth does that come from? This entire site is simply a group of people--the only ones who really care about Ivy basketball to a large degree other than the players and families themselves--expressing their opinions about Ivy basketball as a couple of people might do at a bar about LeBron. No one is forcing any opinions upon anyone else and there is no need to leave because you disagree.

One thing though---did you go to CU or Penn as an undergrad? For to me, who went to Penn undergrad and CU law school, it is the undergrad experience that rules.

 
mbaprof 
Sophomore
Posts: 133

Age: 61
Reg: 12-24-11
06-01-18 11:04 AM - Post#257532    
    In response to bradley

I think you hit it on the head re Yale, being an iconic campus and building (as well as central location). Im sure ESPN was at least consulted in the process. I'm good with it, great pizza, easy to dive up and back on weekend. Poker only 50 minutes away.

I've always thought the small venue solution was to "sweep" the gym between games and sell split tickets.Even Palestra empties out very quickly after a game. Hell we are Ivy guys, how many people are going to hide in the bathrooms like we did when we were kids. Have an active online marketplace for ticket trading for Sunday games. Have a nice viewing area/party for those who want to stick around. With a central location many more folks will probably just come for their teams game anyway.

 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3716

Age: 55
Reg: 07-07-09
Re: 2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 11:29 AM - Post#257543    
    In response to palestra38

This board doesn't get much of the opinions of the players, coaches (who are more hooked into the opinions of the players) and students - though I acknowledge there are far fewer who follow the team than when we were students. I'd surmise the younger voices are more into a tournament then the predominantly older voices on this board. Also the Penn, Princeton and Harvard voices tend to drown out all others.

I am a Penn undergrad, Columbia grad. I agree that the undergrad experience makes a larger impression. That said, I love Columbia basketball and when I post on the Columbia boards it's solely as a Columbia alum and as a defender of my fellow Columbia posters. And of the Columbia players, as Q03 can attest to even though he's one of my absolute favorite posters on the Penn board. My opinions about the league are quite likely different from the average Penn alum due to also being a Columbia alum. The resurgence of Columbia basketball during Smith's Rosenberg-Lo-Barbour teams was a great pleasure for me. I also recognize it's a long uphill climb for Columbia to compete against the leagues big boys year in and year out. Having a 3rd or 4th seed on the line towards the end of the year is a big boost.


 
Streamers 
Postdoc
Posts: 2645
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
06-01-18 11:37 AM - Post#257547    
    In response to mbaprof

I've got the solution! Award the ILT to the school at the bottom of the pre-season poll to minimize the chance of HCA.

Seriously, I think all the old farts on the board like myself who dislike the ILT, in part because of the logistical issues, accept that it is here to stay unless you see a slew of conferences start to give it up for lack of interest (a possibility given the sparse crowds at many of them.) I think we also know that the players and coaches are pretty much in universal favor of it, and that is reason enough to tolerate it.

That does not in any way mean that we think any less of those who disagree or that we are trying to impose our opinions on others. That is what the OTB is for.

Pretty soon, this issue will give way to a far more interesting one: How the 1-done rule will change and the potential impact on mid-majors in general and the IL in particular;ar. Looking forward to that debate.



 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3716

Age: 55
Reg: 07-07-09
2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 11:46 AM - Post#257552    
    In response to Streamers

  • Streamers Said:
Pretty soon, this issue will give way to a far more interesting one: How the 1-done rule will change and the potential impact on mid-majors in general and the IL in particular;ar. Looking forward to that debate.


Agree!

And that debate is going to require a lot of nuance considering the league has had a bunch of highly successful dropouts with good reason (Gates and Zuckerberg to name 2).

To me it comes down to whether the student is in strong standing to achieve a degree anyway or whether they aren't. The latter type of one-and-done will poison the well. Fortunately we've been blessed with far more true student athletes than knuckleheads. Would Dau Jok be a Penn graduate if not for basketball? He's a man on a Time Top 100 Most Influential People trajectory.


 
Tiger69 
Postdoc
Posts: 2273

Reg: 11-23-04
Re: 2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 01:50 PM - Post#257571    
    In response to TheLine

Hey, Line,

Beware. They are sucking you back into the discussion! I agree with you -- we've beat this one up and there are no new thoughts.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 433

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: 2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 02:23 PM - Post#257573    
    In response to TheLine

  • TheLine Said:

3) Besides voices on this board, who is against a tournament? I've haven't heard any.



Courtney Banghart was very vocal about her opposition to a tournament, and has done nothing but criticize it since its inception.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 11460

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: 2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 05:00 PM - Post#257597    
    In response to Go Green

The regular season would be a lot more interesting if the 8th place finisher was relegated.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1825

Reg: 02-15-15
06-01-18 05:32 PM - Post#257598    
    In response to penn nation

Steve Donahue didn't want it at first and now is a big supporter of the ILT.

Players love it and it is a factor in recruiting vs other conferences.

This board is about the only place you can to hear it bashed....though Mike Greenberg on now defunct Mike and Mike show, ripped the IL for changing to a tournament. He hated it, as did Mike Golic, his sidekick.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3525

Reg: 02-04-06
06-01-18 07:05 PM - Post#257605    
    In response to PennFan10

The current coaches are pretty much forced to say they like the tournament no matter what they really think. Only someone as outspoken as a Bangheart is going to stick her neck out. This bandwagon appeal on these boards, as well as the "move on" appeal, for something that is obviously not working very well is silly. The Pac-12 had no tourney, then had a tourney, then dropped it, now has it. Nothing is set in stone.

I'm sure players like to play more games, but if we dropped the tourney and let them go to more regular season tournaments they'd like it as much or better. Heck, maybe even the regular-season contenders prefer the lesser pressure on each game that the tournament provides--slip-ups are less consequential. That's what sucks about it for the rest of us of course. Not as much reason to care about any of the games when you're pretty sure of being in the top four.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3449

Reg: 11-23-04
06-01-18 07:36 PM - Post#257607    
    In response to SRP

As one of the older farts on these boards, I am still for the ILT. The League is, and should be, for the players, not the “fans”.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
06-01-18 07:57 PM - Post#257610    
    In response to PennFan10

How can a 4 team tournament be a factor in recruiting vs other conferences when every other conference has a fully inclusive tournament?


 
TheLine 
Postdoc
Posts: 3716

Age: 55
Reg: 07-07-09
06-01-18 08:13 PM - Post#257613    
    In response to SRP

  • SRP Said:
Not as much reason to care about any of the games when you're pretty sure of being in the top four.


That thought process didn't work so well for Princeton last year.

I'm confident Harvard and Penn played hard throughout even though both clinched early.


 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3786

Reg: 11-22-04
2019 Ivy Tournament at Yale?
06-01-18 08:42 PM - Post#257614    
    In response to TheLine

every one of the coaches that made the tournament on the men's side is fully empowered to say they don't like the tournament. don't be absurd. I suppose Mike Martin could fear speaking out as a not very successful Brown coach because the president of Brown might be reminded that Mike Martin hasn't been fired yet and try to rectify that.

The idea that Tommy Amaker would fear something that Courtney Banghart is ludicrous.

Glen Miller didn't get fired when he said he felt referees jammed him up the a$$. Jammed. him. up. the a$$.

What are the Ivy Presidents going to do, fine James Jones or Steve Donahue for criticizing a tournament they keep making? What?

When there wasn't a tournament, and other non-P coaches wanted a tournament, were coaches fined for calling for one?

Edited by Jeff2sf on 06-01-18 08:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sparman 
Masters Student
Posts: 884
sparman
Reg: 12-08-04
06-01-18 08:49 PM - Post#257615    
    In response to Jeff2sf

Everything is irreversible, until it's reversed.

 
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