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Username Post: tournament        (Topic#21571)
Catskill 
Freshman
Posts: 7

Age: 68
Reg: 03-13-18
05-24-18 02:44 PM - Post#257163    

http://www.dartmouthsports.com//ViewArticle.dbml?D...

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
05-24-18 02:48 PM - Post#257164    
    In response to Catskill

The Abomination sinks to a new low.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3373

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
05-24-18 02:50 PM - Post#257165    
    In response to 10Q

This will certainly be a test. The first two tournaments seem to have been pretty successful. There's now a significant risk that it's going to turn into a sad little affair played in a half empty, crappy little gym.

 
Jeff2sf 
Postdoc
Posts: 3821

Reg: 11-22-04
05-24-18 03:03 PM - Post#257167    
    In response to Silver Maple

why do you think the risk is increased that much more? the risk to me is whether yale qualifies or not. they've been a pretty safe top 4 bet though of course this coming year I'd assume Penn is the safer bet. If they're in, I expect the place to sell out.

Hey I'd rather it at Penn but can't complain.

 
SteveChop 
Masters Student
Posts: 723

Reg: 07-28-07
05-24-18 04:25 PM - Post#257172    
    In response to Jeff2sf

A capacity of 2532! What a joke! It will sell out b/c it is less that 1/3 the size of the Palestra (which was close to a sellout both years). Way to enhance the revenue stream Robin Harris.

Why do I see James Jones' handprints all over this choice? Perhaps he will require that the banner be put up at Yale regardless of who wins. Even Amaker said that the Palestra is the right venue for this tournament. Watch for the ticket prices to go back to the level they were at for the first Ivy tournament in 2017 (or higher).

As an interesting side note, remember when the complaint was that either Penn or Princeton won the Ivy title every year. So far there have been four Ivy championships (oh, OK, NCAA tournament slots) decided by this cockamamie tournament. And they went … two to Penn and two to Princeton.

While I will concede that the games have been exciting both years, this idea remains a terrible one until the Ivy League has a realistic chance of getting a second bid to the NCAA. And they MUST look at the tiebreaker selections. Because of the stupid Ivy League rules, had Penn not won the tournament title, they would NOT have been guaranteed a spot in the NIT.

And no one ever responded to the loss of a game for the four teams who don't make the tournament (they remain locked in at 27, not 28, games).

This tournament remains a bad idea.


 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 456

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
05-25-18 08:07 AM - Post#257184    
    In response to SteveChop

  • SteveChop Said:
A capacity of 2532! Way to enhance the revenue stream Robin Harris.





Would you prefer we spend money to rent a venue?

Apparently, the voices to move it from the Palestra were pretty loud. So it had to go somewhere...


 
weinhauers_ghost 
PhD Student
Posts: 1114

Age: 58
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
05-25-18 08:46 AM - Post#257186    
    In response to Go Green

Can't have it both ways. If the League insists on not paying for a venue (i.e., preferring to play on the home court of one of the member schools), it makes little sense to move it from the one venue which has sufficient seating capacity to accommodate fans of the eight men's and women's teams to one that has barely a third of that capacity,

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 3905

Reg: 11-21-04
05-25-18 09:12 AM - Post#257190    
    In response to weinhauers_ghost

Doubt it has anything to do with money and everything to do with not wanting to look like they are going "big time".

Obviously holding it at the number 1 seat seed makes more sense as they chose a site with limited capacity but best guess is they need time to prepare in advance and had to have a venue determined before the latest date the number 1 seed might get decided.

Ticket sales don't drive the primary revenue streams of most events. It's sponsorships and other revenue sources.

 
weinhauers_ghost 
PhD Student
Posts: 1114

Age: 58
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
05-25-18 10:22 AM - Post#257196    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Doubt it has anything to do with money and everything to do with not wanting to look like they are going "big time"

That will certainly help recruiting.

[/sarc]

 
Penndemonium 
Masters Student
Posts: 820

Reg: 11-29-04
05-25-18 11:54 AM - Post#257203    
    In response to weinhauers_ghost

I understand the gripes about having it there - but the calls to do it somewhere other than the Palestra will keep happening until they have it somewhere else and it sucks. If those tourney games are as grim as people suggest, then this experiment will actually help the tourney move to the Palestra long term. If the tourney is great at Yale, then we have nothing to complain about.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
05-25-18 12:27 PM - Post#257205    
    In response to Penndemonium

Why don't we just stipulate that it will suck and bring it back now. Or dump the thing and be done with it.

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 3905

Reg: 11-21-04
tournament
05-25-18 12:37 PM - Post#257206    
    In response to 10Q

Leaving aside the seating capacity issue, Lee Amphitheatrr has a lot of atmosphere and charm. It has both court side bench seats and tiered chair back seating. All the sight lines are very good.

It does have some undesirable characteristics that can effect visiting teams. One end has no seats - just a wall and the chair backs rise up in a way that creates a different look.

It’s not a bad place and it will sellout and be very loud.

 
SteveChop 
Masters Student
Posts: 723

Reg: 07-28-07
Re: tournament
05-25-18 02:23 PM - Post#257209    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Of course it will sell out - it is TINY. While I'd acknowledge it is an unusual setting, in my view (and I've been there many times), the lighting has always sucked and, as you note, there are those few rows of seats at only one end.

It was noted today in the Philadelphia Inquirer that at this past year's semifinals, the combined attendance was 5,219 and for the finals was 5,564. In 2017, those numbers were 5,023 and 3,833 (with the Penn men not playing) was 3,833. Where does the league think almost 3,000 people per date will be? Even if the average ticket is $50 (and it was much higher in 2017), that's $15,000 in ticket revenue plus the refreshments and souvenirs those 3,000 people would buy.

The article notes that the attendance will suffer. BRILLIANT - hey, these guys represent Ivy League schools. There is NO WAY that you can convince me that this tournament will not suck from a fan's point of view (and the league's pocketbook) even if the games are good.

And much as I also don't like the Columbia gym, Levien holds 2,500 (almost exactly the same number and is more centrally located than New Haven. And it's in New York where people just might find other attractions.


This remains a joke!


 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3466

Reg: 11-23-04
05-25-18 04:17 PM - Post#257211    
    In response to SteveChop

15 yard penalty on Penn foe excessive whining!

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 3905

Reg: 11-21-04
05-25-18 04:27 PM - Post#257213    
    In response to SteveChop

Steve - 50 times 3000 equals $150,000.

Still - I don’t think this has anything to do with money and I also feel comfortable saying the league makes money on this thing and will do so next year, even in New Haven

 
SteveChop 
Masters Student
Posts: 723

Reg: 07-28-07
05-25-18 05:11 PM - Post#257216    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Thanks for correcting my math and strengthening my point Asia. And if they make money, presumably through ESPN, what is the objection to making more? If the total is MORE THAN $300,000 ($150,000 times 2 days - I got that one right) plus concessions, that's an awful lot of money to pass up. If the overall total is $500,000, that's approximately $63,000 per school - maybe then we can afford to have two sets of home and away jerseys with players' names on the back.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19989

Reg: 11-21-04
05-25-18 06:02 PM - Post#257218    
    In response to SteveChop

We need to NFL this tournament. Make a rule that the minimum size to host is 5000 and if any Ivy school builds a 5000+ seat arena, they get to host immediately plus go into the rotation. Over time, we will have adequate arenas in all Ivy sites.

 
Old Bear 
Postdoc
Posts: 3466

Reg: 11-23-04
tournament
05-25-18 06:19 PM - Post#257220    
    In response to palestra38

P’38, why would B, C, C, D, H, Y and probably P’ton build bigger gyms when they down fill the ones they have?

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1273

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
05-25-18 07:38 PM - Post#257221    
    In response to Old Bear

Harvard sells out.

 
section110 
Masters Student
Posts: 755

Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
05-25-18 07:52 PM - Post#257223    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Sometimes & I understand the renovations reduced the capacity at the Harvard place.

 
gopenngo 
Masters Student
Posts: 453

Reg: 01-30-06
Re: tournament
05-25-18 11:19 PM - Post#257224    
    In response to SteveChop

This is as pathetic as Drexel refusing to walk to the Palestra, where all fans could get a seat, insisting the game be played in their little gym. Same mindset at work - keep the Penn fans away to give the home team a chance.

Jonesy got a taste a couple of years ago, and desperately wants it back. And this is his ploy.

And, I think it was in Barbara Bush's will.

 
Charlie Fog 
Masters Student
Posts: 452

Age: 50
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
05-26-18 06:22 AM - Post#257225    
    In response to gopenngo

As lame as it is to have it at lol Yale, I am just glad it is not in the airplane hangar.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1987

Reg: 02-15-15
Re: tournament
05-26-18 08:22 AM - Post#257226    
    In response to gopenngo

  • gopenngo Said:
This is as pathetic as Drexel refusing to walk to the Palestra, where all fans could get a seat, insisting the game be played in their little gym. Same mindset at work - keep the Penn fans away to give the home team a chance.

Jonesy got a taste a couple of years ago, and desperately wants it back. And this is his ploy.

And, I think it was in Barbara Bush's will.



This is also known as the shooter in the grassy knoll theory.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
05-27-18 05:55 AM - Post#257234    
    In response to PennFan10

The Ivy League is such a lame athletic conference.

 
UPIA1968 
Masters Student
Posts: 738
UPIA1968
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
05-27-18 09:50 PM - Post#257252    
    In response to 10Q

Remember it was created with the express purpose of deemphasizing athletics.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
05-28-18 07:28 AM - Post#257257    
    In response to UPIA1968

Isn't that special.

 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 8584

Reg: 12-07-04
05-29-18 12:09 PM - Post#257277    
    In response to 10Q

So we're going to tell 3,000 interested fans of Ivy basketball (as if there is an unlimited amount of them) to basically eff off? That seems smart...

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
tournament
05-29-18 12:32 PM - Post#257289    
    In response to Quakers03

Rinkydink

I really think it's time for Penn to pull out of the Ivy League athletically. Let's give out scholarships and apply for ACC membership. What could go wrong?

 
Local Observer 
Junior
Posts: 229
Local Observer
Reg: 03-30-14
Re: tournament
05-29-18 06:10 PM - Post#257321    
    In response to 10Q

Could we hold the door?

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19989

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: tournament
05-29-18 09:10 PM - Post#257325    
    In response to 10Q

Oh please go away. I know you like to joke but the entire image of the University is based on being an Ivy. I know you admire the U, but Penn is not the U, nor should it be.

 
gopenngo 
Masters Student
Posts: 453

Reg: 01-30-06
05-29-18 10:10 PM - Post#257327    
    In response to Quakers03

You know what's coming, don't you? No doubleheader. Separate admission for each game, so your $45 gets you Ivy half-Madness. Or maybe Ivy partial-Interest. That is, if ESPN will allow the time to sweep the riff-raff out from the first game before broadcast tip of the second.

 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 8584

Reg: 12-07-04
05-29-18 11:13 PM - Post#257332    
    In response to gopenngo

Good. That will give me more time to get the hell out of New Haven and head to NYC for the night or maybe even back home. They may get some extra gate, but I'm not spending a dime in that town.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: tournament
05-30-18 06:55 AM - Post#257340    
    In response to palestra38

I'm just talking about athletics. Actually I'm just talking about basketball. Tell me you wouldn't enjoy Penn competing in the ACC in basketball.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19989

Reg: 11-21-04
05-30-18 08:04 AM - Post#257344    
    In response to Quakers03

Actually, New Haven has drastically improved its food and drink offerings in recent years. And the pizza always was very good.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19989

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: tournament
05-30-18 08:06 AM - Post#257345    
    In response to 10Q

Not anymore---there was a time, before the ACC became a football power conference, that it would have been fun to compete with the UNCs, UVAs and Wake Forests of the world. But Louisville (!!), the U (!!!) and Florida State (!!!!)?

No thanks.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
05-30-18 08:51 AM - Post#257351    
    In response to palestra38

We'll have athletic scholarships. We may not win the conference, but we could compete.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1273

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
05-30-18 10:23 AM - Post#257362    
    In response to 10Q

Just like Pitt did this year?

0-18 Pitt resulted in a mutiny. Probably would have made our tournament though.

I'll bet computer simulations had Pitt very competitive to compete in and possibly win our tournament. Wonder what the AI was for that squad? They were certainly smart enough to seek transfer rights.

 
T.P.F.K.A.D.W. 
Masters Student
Posts: 857

Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
05-30-18 10:26 AM - Post#257363    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Pitt. Penn. What's the difference?

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 15536

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
05-30-18 10:57 AM - Post#257367    
    In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.

What can you expect from a Harvard guy. Good intellect, but no ability to apply it to the real world.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1273

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
05-30-18 02:18 PM - Post#257393    
    In response to 10Q

Or 2 sons: one a recent graduate from Pitt and the other from Harvard

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1987

Reg: 02-15-15
05-30-18 04:02 PM - Post#257406    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Pitt would win ILT? The same Pitt who lost by 9 to Navy and we beat by 21? No.

 
Mike Porter 
Postdoc
Posts: 2477
Mike Porter
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
05-30-18 09:31 PM - Post#257412    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

  • HARVARDDADGRAD Said:
Just like Pitt did this year?

0-18 Pitt resulted in a mutiny. Probably would have made our tournament though.

I'll bet computer simulations had Pitt very competitive to compete in and possibly win our tournament. Wonder what the AI was for that squad? They were certainly smart enough to seek transfer rights.



The ACC comment is pretty pointless from where I’m sitting (sorry 10Q), but to be clear Pitt would not be highly rated against the Ivy this past year. They would have the 5th best Kenpom rating behind Penn, Harvard, Yale and Princeton, only edging Columbia by 4 spots to avoid 6th.


 
rbg 
PhD Student
Posts: 1050

Reg: 10-20-14
08-15-18 12:03 PM - Post#260296    
    In response to Mike Porter

For Penn fans worried about moving the Ivy Tournament to Yale, there is this item about homecourt boost (difference between home and away winning percentage) buried in an NCAA article on the toughest home courts.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/a rticle/2...

- Strangely enough, Gonzaga's homecourt boost (15.07 percent) is the second lowest in all of Division I, behind Penn at 12.7 percent. -

Take from it what you will ....

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1273

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
tournament
08-15-18 12:26 PM - Post#260297    
    In response to rbg

But Gonzaga is still selected as the 3rd toughest place for visitors to play. I'd venture that Penn's HCA over the past decade was diminished as the fans became frustrated and called for the program to be overhauled - as it eventually was.

Overall, however, the article does state that:

"Since the turn of the century, the average Division I team wins 34.1 percent of its games on the road, and 68.5 percent of its games at home. That's a staggering difference."

This stat is likely higher for a tournament atmosphere where home fan support is more likely and intense.

I previously provided the Ivy league in conference home records for each team in 2017-18 and recall a decisive and obvious impact.

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 08-15-18 12:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19989

Reg: 11-21-04
08-15-18 12:33 PM - Post#260299    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

It depends on who is in the building. That's why the ticket policy for the playoff will be so important--Penn could easily fill the building by itself. Yale fans, in general, don't care and if the tournament is held, as it was last year, during Spring Break, Penn will buy up all the Yale tickets.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1273

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
08-15-18 12:49 PM - Post#260301    
    In response to palestra38

Please be kind enought to leave 4 for my Harvard group. Appreciated.

More than likely, tix blocks will be allocated to each school and sell out. After that, it'll be first come first serve.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19989

Reg: 11-21-04
08-15-18 12:56 PM - Post#260304    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Come into the 2010s. There are secondary sources for tickets. I agree they will be parceled out originally but that doesn't mean that a Yale student going to Cabo won't be happy to sell his tickets.

 
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