palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
03-13-19 11:36 AM - Post#281000
In response to Streamers
This happened at Stanford, too. It has nothing to do with anything other than the lack of oversight of special admissions. As Blutarski said "You F----d Up, You trusted us." Well, this can't be a trust thing---they have to ensure that recruits are real. For goodness sake, the guy out in California was taking stock photos of athletes and superimposing his clients' faces over them in applications. What a joke.
Just one thing---who has to pay $500K to get their kid into Southern Cal???
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 12:01 PM - Post#281009
In response to Streamers
The image of Jerome is stricken. So shall it be written.
Come on. Leave the Historical Palestra alone.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
03-13-19 12:01 PM - Post#281010
In response to palestra38
Just one thing---who has to pay $500K to get their kid into Southern Cal???
Check out some recent USN&WR's rankings. USC is up there with some Ivies.
This isn't your father's USC.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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03-13-19 12:18 PM - Post#281021
In response to Go Green
Go Green, was about to say the same thing.
Living in the northeast distorts our view of what a good university is. In many places in the US it's tough enough getting into the top public U in the area - which is why people are paying to get their kids into UCLA and Texas.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8240
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 12:34 PM - Post#281026
In response to TheLine
USC is the Syracuse of the west coast.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
03-13-19 01:14 PM - Post#281031
In response to Streamers
Streamers:
I understand the nuances you and others have mentioned, but to me it's all about defrauding members of our society. The Feds are coming after those who are committing "fraud", presumably at the best of either these powerful institutions or other powerful individuals who still can't seem to find a way to get their kids into their desired schools, or both.
The fact that colleges consider it "legal" for others to bribe them is a distinction without difference for me. They are perpetuating systematic structural inequities in society while purporting to level these differences through education. That is a fraud in my book (and these fraudsters get to write the rules so they don't get punished for it) and one that is far more damaging than the isolated number of cases in this recent story.
Edited by penn nation on 03-13-19 01:15 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
03-13-19 01:22 PM - Post#281032
In response to penn nation
So I would presume you support the Harvard lawsuit...something I do not. If you believe in a "meritocracy", you have to show the objective facts supporting a fine line in admissions. There simply are none....and private universities (actually, it should apply to public as well, as long as there is no discrimination against legally protected classes) should be allowed to choose a class that they feel best shows off the University. As we have discussed, at least 3-4 times the number of accepted applicants are "admittable". What we are dealing with here are students who in the general population have little chance of admission. We are dealing with the betrayal of a trust and bribery to induce that betrayal.
There is an argument to be made against preferences in admission, but that is not the same thing as what is going on here. And unless you show me that you can create a purely objective based admission process, these preferences have to be permissible.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
03-13-19 01:29 PM - Post#281034
In response to palestra38
I do not support the Harvard lawsuit because we all know what that's really about--I'm taking the long view.
This current roundup of 50 is just another example of our legal system saying it's OK for corporations to do whatever they like to defraud society, but if individuals try the same thing (and to institutions, the nerve) we will come after them.
Edited by penn nation on 03-13-19 01:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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03-13-19 03:01 PM - Post#281060
In response to Streamers
USC is the Syracuse of the west coast.
The old matrix was :
smart and rich : Stanford
smart and not rich : Cal
not as smart and not rich : UCLA
not as smart and rich : USC
Things have changed over the past few years. Quality coming out of USC in particular is pretty high and I'd guess significantly higher than Syracuse. Full disclosure - I interview quite a few USC grads.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-13-19 03:11 PM - Post#281064
In response to TheLine
Things have changed over the past few years. Quality coming out of USC in particular is pretty high and I'd guess significantly higher than Syracuse. Full disclosure - I interview quite a few USC grads.
USC's rise in the USN&WR's rankings over the past generation is pretty similar to Penn's.
It helps a lot that the surrounding areas of both campuses (campi) have greatly improved over the past 30 years. Neither urban Philly or LA are the dumps or deathtraps that they used to be (notwithstanding the recent tragic killing of the USC student)...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 03:19 PM - Post#281067
In response to Go Green
USC's is far more recent, and is more closely related to the money issues at stake in this scandal---how many major private universities are there in California---they can be counted on your hands. USC simply has very little competition and the amount of money competing to get kids into a private university is huge.
Penn started its rise well before the US News rankings made a mockery of what makes a great school great. And it really had to do with the 1980s Greed is Great era that made Wharton the most desirable undergraduate business program in the nation. I attended the College in the '70s and then it took 40-50 extra SAT points to get into Arts and Sciences. That flipped in the '80s--made Penn a hot school and the other schools have become much more selective as well since that time.
BTW, the Penn neighborhood never was that dangerous since it was assembled in the '60s---it simply was near to a relatively unsafe area. SC was in an unsafe area.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 03:38 PM - Post#281078
In response to palestra38
So do any of these famous people go to jail? This is fraud, no?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 03:48 PM - Post#281082
In response to 10Q
It is, indeed. It's hard to imagine any hard time for anything other than the tax fraud (apparently, the scheme was financed by a charitable non-profit for kids with learning disabilities and they had their kids fraudulently certified by a quack psychologist as having learning disabilities---they then donated large amounts of money to the "charity" which paid the bribes and they took charitable tax deductions). But this is high profile, so we'll see.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 03:50 PM - Post#281084
In response to palestra38
And are the students all going to be immediately expelled? I'd say so. They can reapply.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 03:52 PM - Post#281087
In response to 10Q
If they participated in admissions fraud (such as had others take tests for them), they are gone and will not be allowed back in. If like the Penn kid, all there was was a bribe with no evidence the kid was in on it, nothing will happen.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-13-19 04:03 PM - Post#281095
In response to palestra38
Auburn places assistant coach Ira Bowman on administrative leave, pending investigation.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23368
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-19 04:14 PM - Post#281097
In response to palestra38
I think even if the kid didn't know, he or she is gone, even if he or she would have gotten in without the cash payments.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-13-19 04:49 PM - Post#281103
In response to TheLine
In the mid to late 90s when I was in grad school and met a lot of folks from California, a lot of them were from UCLA and kind of scoffed at USC, its (then) poor stepsister.
No longer.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3052
Reg: 10-20-14
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03-13-19 04:52 PM - Post#281106
In response to 10Q
I think schools are likely to dismiss students who knowingly put false information into their application. If any of these present or graduated students (the cases go back to 2011) submitted what they thought were valid applications, its not as easy.
The Penn situation is perplexing. The student may have put down truthful information in his application, but shouldn't he have known that it was inappropriate (or at least odd) for a Division 1 head coach to fly to his home and be his personal coach?
Maybe many of these students did think something odd was going on (one student had a 400 point jump in her score), but they had an inherent trust in their parents. Maybe, others did feel like they wanted to speak out, but found it difficult to challenge powerful beloved people in their lives who were doing things that were supposed to be for their short and long-term future.
Maybe there are no easy answers. I hope the schools spend some time investigating their students and staffs before passing judgement?
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
03-13-19 04:58 PM - Post#281108
In response to palestra38
There is an argument to be made against preferences in admission, but that is not the same thing as what is going on here. And unless you show me that you can create a purely objective based admission process, these preferences have to be permissible.
But here is where there are all kinds of issues. Many of us on this board have, for example, roundly condemned the continued eating clubs at one of our sister institutions as an example of systematically perpetuating (and even encouraging) structural inequalities.
Yet why should it end there? I mean, which high school students could even apply to be on a sailing team, for example? Water polo? Boathouse Row? I'm guessing there aren't too many graduates of public schools on any of those squads.
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