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Username Post: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn        (Topic#21715)
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-03-19 10:56 AM - Post#284143    
    In response to Jeff2sf

The problem is that there is no perfect system. Penn is deciding among kids who are not objectively distinguishable. Once you bring in subjective criteria, there is really no line you can draw. Frankly, as a private institution, I support the right of Penn (and Harvard--which is a defendant in a law suit brought hypocritically by those who benefit from most of the subjective criteria but object to different subjective criteria) to determine its class and leave it to its trustees, alumni and faculty to determine whether the line drawing is appropriate.

In that regard, I wonder whether the plaintiffs in the Harvard suit would want to continue the suit if they knew that Harvard would decide admissions purely on numbers and not on legacy, donations or any other similar type of criteria.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-03-19 12:00 PM - Post#284147    
    In response to Jeff2sf

I know I'm harping on this, but I just don't feel the young man is innocent. We do not know what he did or didn't know about any payments from his father to Jerome, but he did know that a Division 1 coach was acting as his personal coach and that is absolutely inappropriate.

To me, that act completely makes his acceptable grades/board scores/recommendations in his college application and his positive grades at Penn irrelevant.

I am absolutely sure that Penn will look to quietly give this young man his diploma, send him on his way, and move on from this whole debacle. However, in my opinion, it does not make it the right decision.

Edited by rbg on 05-03-19 12:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Mike Porter 
Postdoc
Posts: 3615
Mike Porter
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
05-03-19 02:29 PM - Post#284153    
    In response to rbg

He’s done all the real hard work to earn his degree and by all accounts has been a good student in and out of the classroom.

He also is pretty #%$@ in general. His dad is going to jail for a long time if not forever, he isn’t going to see family money, it will take every future potential employer 10 seconds of a google search to often disqualify him... he will need brave people/employers to even take a chance on hiring him and this will be a part of his life he can’t escape moving forward.

Not letting the kid at least get his degree he earned through the work (it was the entry that was rigged, not his degree) would just be cruel and unusual punishment at this point.

All those above reasons that make this a disaster for the kid will be the best possible deterrent anyway. Taking his degree away would be more about making you feel better that Penn “did something” than it would be about making an actual difference.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
05-03-19 02:41 PM - Post#284154    
    In response to Mike Porter

I lean in your direction, considering the evidence we have. If there is any evidence that his academic qualifications were phony, that would be a different story. But I had a roommate who was recruited to Penn as a lacrosse player, got in and never went out for the team--never had any intention of playing in college. Got a Wharton degree and became a CFO of a pretty large company. Probably wouldn't have gotten in otherwise. The difference here is the father's payoff of Jerome to designate the kid. So unless the kid was involved in the bribery scheme all you have is what others do all the time....misrepresent their intention to play a sport. Not enough to take his degree away (plus everything I said above about Penn getting sued and looking bad). The exception would be if the payoff to the mastermind of the scheme involved a fraudulent test or grade.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-03-19 03:21 PM - Post#284155    
    In response to palestra38

I understand your point, but the decision to expel should absolutely not be based on whether any of us feel better or not.

I also don't believe the decision should be based on how well the student did in his time at the university. While he may have objectively been a competitive applicant, did well when he got to Penn, and has a father who may be heading to federal prison for the rest of his days, the student still got into the school on a fraudulent manner - knowingly having the Penn head coach be his personal coach.

While I greatly appreciate all those who are looking at this situation from the subjective aspect of the young man, I think for Penn to ignore this seems like a dangerous precedent.



Edited by rbg on 05-03-19 03:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-03-19 03:28 PM - Post#284156    
    In response to rbg

You're not responding to my post---how can you expel or deny him a diploma if he has the right not to go out for basketball after being a basketball recruit, unless you have evidence that he knew of the bribe or committed academic fraud? Admissions have nothing to do with NCAA rules, and that is all you are relying on with respect to his participation.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-03-19 03:44 PM - Post#284157    
    In response to palestra38

You are correct, I was responding to Mike post.

He certainly has the right to not go out for the team and not jeopardize his right to be at the school, if he was a legitimate recruit.

Even if he did not know of the bribe or commit academic fraud, he knowingly had the Penn head coach come to his house and be his personal coach from 2013-2015. This was the fraudulent way that he got Eric Furda and the Admissions Department to give him access into the school.

If Jerome received money from the father without the student's knowledge and Jerome never flew down to give the young man personal coaching, then I would say that he should be allowed to stay and graduate. For me, the fact that he was aware of Jerome's personal involvement is the deciding factor since it makes him a part of the fraud.

I would think the Admissions Department of the 8 schools are well aware that recruited athletes may never actually suit up. It's the price of doing business in a non-scholarship conference. But this seems like something that they would consider beyond the pale.

Edited by rbg on 05-03-19 03:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-03-19 03:47 PM - Post#284158    
    In response to rbg

Yes, but that is just an NCAA rule--not a Penn rule. As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with contact with a professor or other Penn official prior to admission. He may have been ineligible to play basketball, but I don't see what that has to do with his admission status.

Again, unless he was buying exam scores or there is proof of his actual knowledge of bribery, I think we don't have enough to expel.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
05-03-19 03:56 PM - Post#284159    
    In response to rbg

I understand that he is going to suffer the loss of his father to jail and it will be a challenge for him to start his career. If he appropriately makes amends for his part in all of this, I would hope that there would be people in the business world who would give him a chance. I would also hope that there are people who are family connections that know who he is and would be able to assist him in getting opportunities.

So far, there has been no form of apology from the young man. In fact, it is worse since his family has hired a PR group to have people look the other way.
If I was an employer, I might see those issues as more damning than the mistakes of a 16-18 year old.

For those that disagree with my view(s) on this, do you feel the school should do anything to a student that had some direct part in this?

 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1878

Reg: 11-29-04
Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-03-19 05:30 PM - Post#284162    
    In response to rbg

I'm mostly with rbg on this. I am not out to ruin a young man's life. But the impropriety was there - cash was exchanged in violation of school policy. That is why it is part of wire fraud charges. The school's response needs to impact both the offending coach and those that benefitted from it.

I fully understand that he has gotten fine grades. I think a large population of people can succeed at Penn. I fully understand that he is days from graduation. The crime took place, and he was admitted on that basis. Even if the crime was discovered 10 years from now, his diploma would need to be rescinded. This is about maintaining equity for the broad student population, not about hurting the young man.

I think others are wrong about his life being ruined. First of all, his dad will not lose the family fortune over this. He was wealthy well beyond anything the government will claim back for restitution and penalties. Wealthy people get by just fine in this country, regardless of their past record. The family has enough money to live very well without employment - purely on investment income. How many other students could hire a PR team to help try to repair their reputation? The young man may or may not deserve the punishment based on his own actions and knowledge, but there still needs to be accountability and consequences.

This was not just a regular athletic recruit deciding not to play. That is within their rights. It wasn't just someone stretching their athletic resume and capitalizing on their relationships. Big money changed hands here to make this happen. That so clearly crossed the line. If he was qualified without the bribe, that's how they should have applied. The bribe is the problem, not the student's qualifications or performance.

Stanford got it right. The fastest way to cure the disease is to remove the tumor.

  • rbg Said:
I understand that he is going to suffer the loss of his father to jail and it will be a challenge for him to start his career. If he appropriately makes amends for his part in all of this, I would hope that there would be people in the business world who would give him a chance. I would also hope that there are people who are family connections that know who he is and would be able to assist him in getting opportunities.

So far, there has been no form of apology from the young man. In fact, it is worse since his family has hired a PR group to have people look the other way.
If I was an employer, I might see those issues as more damning than the mistakes of a 16-18 year old.

For those that disagree with my view(s) on this, do you feel the school should do anything to a student that had some direct part in this?



Edited by Penndemonium on 05-03-19 05:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-07-19 06:19 AM - Post#284237    
    In response to rbg

  • rbg Said:
I know I'm harping on this, but I just don't feel the young man is innocent. We do not know what he did or didn't know about any payments from his father to Jerome, but he did know that a Division 1 coach was acting as his personal coach and that is absolutely inappropriate.







He would likely fall under the "probably knew" category here.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03 /college-adm...


 
91Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Reg: 11-22-04
05-07-19 07:27 AM - Post#284239    
    In response to Go Green

Most of the kids in the "probably did not know" had to have a pretty good idea. You went from 1000 on the PSAT to 1000 on the SAT? You got an 800 (perfect score) on the math PSAT? It's more than a little hard to believe. Also, this line of thinking argues they did not notice on their applications that it indicates they are athletes, much less accomplished enough to get into these schools? So the kids did not look at their applications? That argues someone else filled them out. That ain't kosher either.

Kick them all out. With no penalty there is no lesson learned by anyone. There is also no deterrent factor for people who may think about anything like this in the future. Harsh but realistic.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
05-07-19 08:51 AM - Post#284240    
    In response to 91Quake

Is there evidence of score alterations with the Penn kid? I had not heard that

 
91Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Reg: 11-22-04
05-07-19 10:07 AM - Post#284248    
    In response to palestra38

I was referring to the other cases in the referenced article. But my point is that it is hard to conceive these kids did not know what was going on. Did they orchestrate the actions? Nope, but did they benefit? Definitely.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
05-07-19 01:10 PM - Post#284251    
    In response to 91Quake

I just disagree that benefit is enough unless there was knowledge and/or participation in the criminal act. Otherwise, it's no different than the myriad of tricks and insider moves that people make to get ahead of the line at these schools.

 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1878

Reg: 11-29-04
05-08-19 01:00 AM - Post#284283    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
I just disagree that benefit is enough unless there was knowledge and/or participation in the criminal act. Otherwise, it's no different than the myriad of tricks and insider moves that people make to get ahead of the line at these schools.



The difference is that an actual crime was committed. Money changed hands, school employees violated their fiduciary duties, and there was wire fraud to get these kids in. When you bribe a school official, you or your kid should have to go.

A person donating big money is doing it with school knowledge, and no employees are pocketing a bribe. You could argue about the fairness, but it is not illegal or in contravention of school policy. If you pay the bribe, your kid has to go. They may be completely innocent and unknowing, but they still have to go.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
05-08-19 04:50 PM - Post#284311    
    In response to Penndemonium

Except that the kid was admittable. He didn't (as far as I know--that would be an automatic expulsion) cheat on his exams as many in the national case did, and he wasn't (like the Full House woman's kids) clearly not qualified except for the bogus crew designation. What amazes me is seeing Jerome Allen walk the Boston sidelines without any consequences, not that this kid will be allowed to graduate. I hear your point, but unless I know that he is involved or cheated on his tests or scores, I let him graduate.

 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1878

Reg: 11-29-04
05-08-19 05:55 PM - Post#284317    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
Except that the kid was admittable. He didn't (as far as I know--that would be an automatic expulsion) cheat on his exams as many in the national case did, and he wasn't (like the Full House woman's kids) clearly not qualified except for the bogus crew designation. What amazes me is seeing Jerome Allen walk the Boston sidelines without any consequences, not that this kid will be allowed to graduate. I hear your point, but unless I know that he is involved or cheated on his tests or scores, I let him graduate.



I don't dispute whether he was admittable. Unfortunately there are probably 5 to 1 kids who are admittable vs. admitted. Money changed hands here, and we have an admission of guilt from Jerome. I understand your point, but here is my framework. If a seat was paid for by El Chapo through illegal bribes, the degree candidate must go. If El Chapo donated the money to the school, the school made the mistake of accepting it, and they admitted a student, then it's the school's fault and he stays. In this case, it was the parent's fault, a crime was committed in the act of this happening, and the kid must go. As long as he didn't know about it, I feel bad for him - but THIS WAS A CRIME!


 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1878

Reg: 11-29-04
05-08-19 06:00 PM - Post#284318    
    In response to Penndemonium

BTW, I'm not sure they should take that action until there is a verdict on Esformes related to this incident. Jerome has already pled guilty, so there are enough facts to take action already - but I wouldn't blame the administration for waiting until Esformes' verdict on this is finished and case is closed. That may or may not be before graduation.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
Article: Jerome Took Bribes at Penn
05-10-19 09:07 AM - Post#284350    
    In response to Penndemonium

Here is a new article on the Allen-Esformes connection at the Florence Standard. I don't think there is anything new, but I will link it due to the conversation that Mr. Esformes had with William Singer, the mastermind of the college bribery scandal.

https://florencestandard.com/miami-exec-who-bribed ...

In the February 2014 texts, Esformes mentions that his son scored a 2000 on the SAT (then, a 3 part exam with a maximum of 2400) and wanted to know if that was good enough to get into Penn. Singer says that a regular student would need 2200+. As an athlete, he would need 700 across the board.

We don't know how Morris Esformes scored when he retook the test. While his score probably went up, like many students who take the test again, going up 200+ points is not easy.

I know that Mr. Esformes' lawyer made it known during the trial that Morris was a qualified candidate able to get in without being designated as an athlete. Based on the son's initial scores, he would have been a good candidate, but not one who would have made it into Penn as a regular student.

I understand that the young man did well once he got to Penn, but that is not an issue. Many good high school students who are rejected from Penn would do very well if they had somehow gotten to go there. Based on his junior year information, he still needed to be designated an athlete to get into Penn.

Until Penn or Mr. Esformes' attorney provide information about his subsequent SAT or ACT exams, I think the lawyer's narrative that Morris Esformes would have gotten into Penn on his own merits should not be accepted.

Edited by rbg on 05-10-19 09:10 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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