pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-21-18 11:20 PM - Post#259244
We have hit the trifecta of bad news: Jelani, Ira, and Jerome. Let's think positively and move forward. Starting backcourt by the start of Ivy League play: Woods and Hamilton, Woods and Goodman, Woods and Scott, Betley to the backcourt with Woods, or Silpe and Woods? We have some interesting and talented choices. Steve can mix and match to his heart's content, including slotting in a freshman, but what is your pick? We know it won't be Woods and Esformes. Assuming full recovery from Tyler's injury, mine is Woods and Hamilton based on experience, defense, and similarity in play to Foreman-Woods.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3583
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-22-18 07:59 AM - Post#259245
In response to pennsive
Tyler Hamilton is not a guard. He is a 3. He can’t dribnle well enough vs a defender to be a guard. Woods Silpe and Goodman are the guards. We can get away with Woods playing OG with Betley at the 2 so that we can play another 3 pt shooter along Hamilton/Scott w AJ. The combinations really depends on who becomes a consistent 3 pt threat other than Betley.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-22-18 08:48 AM - Post#259246
In response to PennFan10
Can Betley play the 2? If so then it could allow extended run outs for Scott, who was looking promising before his injury. Looks like there may be more depth up front then in the backcourt. If Simmons isn't earning more minutes then something has gone very wrong, and we should hope Wang will be earning minutes as well. The back court without Jelani will be lacking height unless Betley takes some minutes there or one of the Frosh is ready early (I'm not counting on that).
Of the 3 most likely guard returnees
- Woods is the front runner for minutes. He plays the best D and is careful with the ball. His outside shooting got better but needs to be a notch better. FT shooting needs to be more than a notch better, the one positive is that he was better at the end of the season. Shockingly Woods FT% was better than Goodman or Silpe.
- Goodman is the most dynamic of the 3. If he plays like he does on his good days then he's Penn's best guard. His issue has been consistency. His FT shooting would ordinarily make him borderline unplayable at the end of games except it isn't much worse than Woods and is better than Silpe. I think the direction of Goodman's growth as a player will be critical to the success of the season.
- There's a lot to like about Silpe. He's turned into a good shooter. He's a good passer. He got his turnover rate under control. Observationally, he plays decent help D but is limited - he's not as strong, athletic, or has the court awareness of Woods, he doesn't have the quickness and recovery speed of Goodman. Then there are a couple of elements of the game he needs to work on. His 3FT shooting was awful last year even for Penn standards. On D he has ball watches too much and has a tendency to wander away from the player he's supposed to cover. These issues need to be addressed before Donahue can trust him with more minutes.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8216
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-22-18 09:13 AM - Post#259247
In response to PennFan10
PF 10 is right, Tyler is not only a 3, but will play mostlywhen/ where is needed defensively unless he flashes new offensive skills in practice. Woods is certain, but his value with the ball is creating for himself more than feeding the shooters unless the defenses sag on him in the lane. I think Devon will get every chance at the point, but plan B will be Silpe, who, despite some other flaws in his game, sees the court better than anyone else on this squad. I’m sure they will give Betley some backcourt time when the matchups favor it in order to make room for Scott and maybe Wang at the 3 if they want to play big.
Unless Jelani can both rehab and shake off a lot of rust, this does not bode well for the backcourt next year. The staff has clearly targeted 2020 for PG prospects; they may have to rethink this unless it’s likely too late for a transfer option.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3770
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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07-22-18 10:55 AM - Post#259249
In response to Streamers
I wouldn't forget about the freshmen. In particular, Bryce Washington might be ready to play right away, whether as a starter or off the bench.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8216
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-22-18 12:42 PM - Post#259250
In response to Silver Maple
I may be wrong but I’m not under the impression he’s a point let alone a freshman PG.
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FLBB
Freshman
Posts: 41
Age: 65
Reg: 05-19-18
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07-22-18 01:07 PM - Post#259251
In response to Streamers
https://collegebasketball .nbcsports.com/2018/07/21...
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3583
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-22-18 03:57 PM - Post#259252
In response to TheLine
).
- There's a lot to like about Silpe. He's turned into a good shooter. He's a good passer. He got his turnover rate under control. Observationally, he plays decent help D but is limited - he's not as strong, athletic, or has the court awareness of Woods, he doesn't have the quickness and recovery speed of Goodman. Then there are a couple of elements of the game he needs to work on. His 3FT shooting was awful last year even for Penn standards. On D he has ball watches too much and has a tendency to wander away from the player he's supposed to cover. These issues need to be addressed before Donahue can trust him with more minutes.
Donahue trusts Silpe and I would be surprised if he wasn't a big part of the rotation this year as a senior. There are no guards that are as big and strong as Woods or as quick as Dev G. That's why those guys also play a lot. Silpe is the best passer and ball handler we have among guards and he is a plus defender. He will be in the rotation.
Wang is not a 3 and never will be. To be a 3 in our league you have to be able to guard Seth Towns and Myles Stephens. Wang is a stretch 4 and/or 5 with an outside game. He will be in the mix as a sub for AJ and Max.
At this point we can be sure Woods, Betley, Max and AJ will see a lot of minutes. I think Silpe is the next most trustworthy player to join that group. Anything beyond that is uncertain at best and will need to be earned.
If Imegwu, Wang, Washington, Donahue, Hamilton, Scott, Kuba, or whomever wants to see the floor at all they will have to be able to shoot the 3 and play defense against multiple postions. More than likely, whoever can shoot the 3 most consistently from that group will get a good look.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8216
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-22-18 04:11 PM - Post#259253
In response to PennFan10
I was not suggesting Wang is a true 3. I only meant thay he could see time out there with AJ and Max or Simmons situationally because of his 3 shooting ability if Steve wanted to go very big.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8216
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-22-18 04:11 PM - Post#259254
In response to PennFan10
I was not suggesting Wang is a true 3. I only meant thay he could see time out there with AJ and Max or Simmons situationally because of his 3 shooting ability if Steve wanted to go very big.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3583
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-22-18 04:25 PM - Post#259255
In response to Streamers
I understand but positions aren't really decided based on your offensive skill set, rather most coaches decide what position you can play based on who you can defend. Wang can shoot the 3, but that fits with the 5 in our offensive set as the 5 plays at the top of the key and the offense runs through them. If Wang gets into the rotation, its likely going to be as a back up to AJ/Max. Donahue struggled to play 2 bigs over the past 2 seasons. 3 bigs would be unprecedented blasphemy.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8216
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-22-18 09:11 PM - Post#259256
In response to PennFan10
Donahue struggled to play 2 bigs over the past 2 seasons. 3 bigs would be unprecedented blasphemy.
LOL
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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07-22-18 09:42 PM - Post#259258
In response to PennFan10
Top 4 are a lock. Woods could play either guard spot, depending on who is the 5th guy. I think Goodman finished the year well ahead of Silpe, but it is far from a lock that he stays there. I wouldn’t sleep on Jackson Donahue either. Personally I’d put Hamilton further back. My guess is that he isn’t going to get big minutes. He could be a piece that sees time, though, depending on the mix. I think the 5th starter will be Goodman, Silpe, Donahue, or Washington. At the least, I think Donahue is likely a shooter off the bench.
Bad week. At least we got that very nice piece written by Woods to remind us what a great group of kids this is.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21188
Reg: 12-02-04
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07-22-18 10:12 PM - Post#259259
In response to SomeGuy
Goodman is best as a change of pace G coming off the bench. SD used him at times as a starter when the matchup happened to dictate it, but I don't see Goodman as a full time starter.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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07-23-18 12:06 AM - Post#259260
In response to penn nation
But the question is who then. I mean, yes, Goodman got used as a change of pace last year. But he played 100 more minutes than Donahue and 200 more than Silpe. Does it really make sense that the Coach will leave him as a change of pace guy and instead elevate someone who wasn’t even the change of pace guy last year? Or that he would elevate Hamilton, who has played fewer minutes in his entire career than Goodman has in each of his individual seasons? As I said, I think the fifth starter spot is up for grabs; I just think Goodman is the favorite. There are reasons why he might be better suited to come off the bench, but that is even more true of the alternatives.
The one obvious exception is Washington. It is theoretically possible that he comes in ready to go, in which case Woods would play point.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-23-18 12:47 AM - Post#259261
In response to penn nation
Interesting that I don’t see much mention of Simmons. Don’t know how his summer has been, but hoping he has more of an impact this season.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-23-18 07:17 AM - Post#259262
In response to Mike Porter
We know what Coach Donahue expects, he hasn't been shy about it - ability to knock down the 3 and play D within the context of the team's approach, which also stresses passing and keeping turnovers to a minimum on O, and switching / fighting to get position over the pick on D. Whoever does that the best will play.
I like that Donahue stresses a consistent approach and doesn't keep players in the doghouse indefinitely. Minutes have been going to the players who earn them the most.
Mike, I'm with you on Simmons, as am I on pretty much all of your opinions. Simmons, along with Goodman and Scott, have skills and athletic ability that this team needs. We need them to make their push into more a critical role in the rotation.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3583
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-23-18 08:31 AM - Post#259263
In response to TheLine
Dev Goodman and Jake Silpe are the point guards for this team. Who plays the most/starts will be determined by their consistency in practice. I would be very surprised if these two don't play a majority of the minutes this year. There is a chance Bryce Washington (or insert other young player here) really surprises, in which case we would see Antonio play the point so Bryce can play the 2. But Dev and Jake are going to be the guys this year. Tyler Hamilton is not in the conversation for a guard spot. He is not a guard.
I also think Tyler is on the Tony Hicks path (graduate and play elsewhere). That's just my speculation and not based on anything I have heard though.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 368
Reg: 12-16-04
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07-23-18 08:40 AM - Post#259264
In response to PennFan10
Are any of the freshman in Philly for the summer?
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-23-18 09:31 AM - Post#259267
In response to PennFan10
Who is saying Hamilton is in the running for PG? If he plays at all it will be at the 3 and only if he beats out Scott for minutes, and I'm doubting that.
It's more likely Woods plays point especially if Donahue decides to slot Betley at the 2 at times. In the end Donahue will play the guys who have earned the minutes - he's embraced the modern concept that roles are less important and flexibility is more important. It seems to play a major factor in the players he recruits. You can see the same trends with the players Henderson and Amaker recruit, and Kyle Smith was recruiting at Columbia.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3583
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-23-18 11:35 AM - Post#259280
In response to TheLine
3 different recent posts mention Hamilton in a conversation among Dev, Jake, Jackson, and Woods. He is not in that conversation, that's all I am trying to clarify. Hamilton is a 3 or small 4. He is a better shooting, less explosive version of Eddie Scott.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-23-18 11:57 AM - Post#259281
In response to PennFan10
I presume you mean in practices because he isn't a better shooter based on the sparse game stats we have for the both of them.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3770
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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07-23-18 12:00 PM - Post#259282
In response to TheLine
My prediction: Hamilton will be, at most, a bit player this coming season. Eddie Scott will see a good amount of minutes off the bench.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8216
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-23-18 02:31 PM - Post#259305
In response to Silver Maple
I personally like Tyler’s game and was not that impressed with what little I saw of Scott save for that one breakout game he had; but the coaches clearly see him as a guy who will get his minutes. Tyler will likely see spot duty as a defensive matchup.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-23-18 05:52 PM - Post#259338
In response to Streamers
Scott is admittedly hard to evaluate. He only played 100 minutes, of which 36 were in his outstanding breakout game. There was enough good out of him in that game to want to see more.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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07-23-18 05:57 PM - Post#259339
In response to TheLine
i would like more of the tyler hamilton from the princeton game in january of 2016. can we get more of that guy? that guy was kewl.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-23-18 06:41 PM - Post#259342
In response to Jeff2sf
Those lost years just make me feel bad that Matt Howard never had the opportunity to play on a good Penn team.
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