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Username Post: Meisner        (Topic#21719)
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
07-28-18 05:51 PM - Post#259586    
    In response to AntiUngvar

To me that's an unrealistic definition. I would say that a star freshman is a player who immediately establishes himself as one of the best in the conference at his position, is a player to whom opposing teams must devote disproportionate attention, and who is an all conference selection in his first year.

 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-28-18 05:59 PM - Post#259587    
    In response to Silver Maple

I like your definition; you're probably much more of a realist than I am in everyday life, too. Actually, the subject of this thread may have come fairly close to qualifying, as a star, by your standard; though, at the time, he was a bit older than a traditional Ivy League frosh.


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
07-28-18 06:33 PM - Post#259588    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Sorry-- I don't think you understand the social norms of this discussion board, so I'll explain. You're not supposed to agree with me. You might want to delete the above post and come back with something with an ever-so-slightly-nasty edge to it. I'll then escalate the tone, questioning your intelligence and objectivity. You'll then say something about my mother. Then Jeff will wade in, and will say that we're both idiots. Once Jeff's in, P38 won't be able to resist getting involved. No matter what Jeff says, he'll have to take the opposite position. You and I will have lost interest by this point, but Jeff and 38 will go back and forth for a week or so. By the time they blow themselves out, the argument will have become unrecognizable to its originators, as they'll be bitterly disagreeing about whether or not Jack Eggleston was the best Penn player of the modern era.

 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-28-18 06:59 PM - Post#259589    
    In response to Silver Maple

Tony Price, of Bronx, NY and Taft HighSchool was the best UPenn player of this or any preexisting era! (But perhaps such an opinion doesn't belong on a Columbia forum.)


 
CUBballFan 
Freshman
Posts: 14

Loc: East Coast
Reg: 04-23-18
07-28-18 09:08 PM - Post#259591    
    In response to Chet Forte

On the contrary, Chet, it is clear that this is one person you don’t know. Almost everyone who actually does know the family views the father as an “actively involved” parent, coach, and support system to his three kids AND their teammates, including many of the CU underclassmen. And those “in the know”, say he has been that same parent with the high school team, the EYBL teams, and our CU team.

In no other basketball or social circles is the father viewed as a “helicopter parent”, but rather one of the few parents who has always made himself available to the coaches and players when they needed something. In regards to players, if you look at his social media history, it is clear that he has always been a supportive and positive influence. That was a resource Engles should have embraced, not driven away. As AntiUngvar already stated, Engles sure liked it when the father was reaching out and helping recruit other members of the talented freshman class.

The early departures of Panatayiou (who abruptly quit the team because he “didn’t enjoy the game anymore” after 1 year with Engles), Faulds & Hanson (who left because of the negative culture, not PT), Safir (who made a lateral move to the other side of the country to join our former coach), and Meisner (who left prematurely despite knowing he would be in a great position to post huge numbers this year) are not just a coincidence. Our HC continues to be the common denominator.

And, Dr. V, as far your suggestion that AntiUngvar should start taking his meds... you may want to consider stopping the pill regimen Engles put you on. Despite the reality of the CU basketball situation, you seem to have slipped into a complicit state of mind.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
07-28-18 09:40 PM - Post#259592    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Yes, I think some of the debate here is about definitions and degree of impact. Faulds was efficient offensively, was a consistent rotation contributor overall, and showed potential for the future. To me, his performance was within what I think were positive expectations.

To push back on some of your assertions, though, as a rebounder he was statistically significantly behind Tape and Meisner, and basically even with smaller options like Hunter and Hanson. As a shot blocker, he was basically even with Tape (for whatever reason, Tape was a much better shot blocker in conference). I also had the impression that Engles didn’t like the matchup with Faulds when opponents played small, which limited opportunities particularly in conference.

Defensive stats are tricky, but there is some reason to believe that Tape was the better defensive option. offensively I think it is clear Faulds was the better player last year.

 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-28-18 09:55 PM - Post#259593    
    In response to CUBballFan

Sir or Madam, as the case may be: Thank you for acknowledging Travis Faulds as the true sportsman, parent and booster of Columbia basketball he's been and remains. Thank you, too, for giving your consideration and time to my remarks. You've actually made a friend for life, though obviously not by true design. If there's any large or small matter that I can ever address on your behalf, please do feel free to write me at: mtv9@caa.columbia.edu


 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2958

Reg: 03-02-08
07-29-18 07:26 AM - Post#259599    
    In response to AntiUngvar

A few points: the tweets by Faulds senior IMHO were downright vicious. It is hard to believe that they were not directed at Engles despite later denials. In fact, no matter the cause, in my opinion they were basically unprecedented in my years on this board and seemed to be directly targeted and highly mean spirited. Second, while I am no fan of the Engles regime based upon what I have seen to date, I have to assume that if Faulds deserved more minutes Engles would have given them to him. All in all, a most unfortunate turn of events.


 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-29-18 04:04 PM - Post#259605    
    In response to SomeGuy

SomeGuy:
I have no problem with your "pushing back on my assertions"- hope, in fact that doing so improves the quality of your life somehow; but if your going to initiate these player comparisons, it may be wise to consider as much of the 2017-18 data available to you:
You wrote that J.Faulds " as a rebounder was statistically significantly behind Tape and Meisner"; IN FACT, the primary category he was significantly behind those two starting players was minutes played- Meisner logged 300 more minutes than Jaron; and Patrick played almost 100 more last season; rather difficult to get credit for NCAA rebounds when you're sitting on the bench next to Gerry Sherwin, you may be willing to agree. You're not allowed to block shots from the bench, or score any points, either.
You also write that "defensive stats are tricky." But offensive numbers can be somewhat ambiguous, as well. So much of all this is about being given the opportunity to perform well. Suppose Jaron Faulds got the star treatment at Columbia that Des Cambridge received at Brown- translating to 30 minutes playing time & 15 shot attempts, per event. That having been the case, it's reasonable to see the real probability of Faulds having supplied Columbia with more than 20 points and 7 rebounds per game, enough to have led the team in both categories. All, hypothetical? Yes; but if Faulds usually took good & makeable shots during 14 minutes on the court (which he did do), he would have taken more such shots given 30 minutes on the court. Whatever hustle he displayed in going after the ball would have continued with increased playing time, considering he was a healthy 18 year old kid.
You go on to imply that Faulds was the team's best low post scoring option; and if you're as correct about that as I believe you are , Coach Engles obviously wasn't having it as Jaron (despite his 60% FGP) took the same amount of shots as Patrick, and about 150 less than Meisner during the course of the lost season.
One more interesting point you made was that "Engles didn’t like the matchup with Faulds when opponents played small". That's true; he clearly didn't. But given his limited rate of success, when Engles doesn't like something, there's probably good reason for a normal coach, actually trying to win a game, to like it! What if Engles, instead of getting caught with his pants down 28 games in a row, DICTATED the terms under which the contest would be played? What if instead of responding to a team's small lineup with a small lineup of his own, Engles made the opponent ANSWER to his BIG lineup? Unfortunately, as the number of white knuckle losses mounted, it just never seemed to occur to this uninspired, vegetable of a man to ever attempt something different.


 
Dr. V 
PhD Student
Posts: 1536

Reg: 11-21-04
07-29-18 05:19 PM - Post#259607    
    In response to AntiUngvar

First it was alleged fascism, and now a “vegetable of a man”?? Anyone still think this person doesn’t need to get back on his meds?

I’m not complicit in anything. But I’m kinda old fashioned, I believe that facts matter.

It’s one thing when something says stupid stuff (e.g., that it reflects badly on Engles that he didn’t thank or publicly acknowledge that a player who was on the team for three years but because of injuries or other reasons never played has left the team —no, coaches don’t do that, i.e., I’ve never seen or heard a coach do that in this type of situation; coaches may do that at an end of season banquet; and the reality of such situations is that most athletes get a highly coveted admission slot plus need based financial aid, which slot, through no fault of the player, did not contribute to the team) or just imagines something (e.g., that a writer for the Spec must have gotten the information that Faulds was purportedly the highest rated CU recruit ever from our coaches—no, I’ve never heard either our current coaches, former coaches or other coaches ever talk in terms of one recruit being higher or lower rated than others), but it’s another when such claims are made along with allegations of facism or whatever other lunacy is claimed and the poster is someone who just recently surfaced who seemed to have some sort of perverse animus or vendetta towards one of our coaches. Yes, that’s a problem if one has any sense of fairness or rationality.

Re Faulds: on two occasions he indicated homesickness. On twitter when announcing his transfer to Michigan, he wrote that M is a great school with great BB and that it’s only an hour away from home! And in an article about the same time that ran in one of the papers in Michigan, he was asked why he had left CU and he said that it wasn’t anything specific but that CU was 11 hours away from home. Whether that was the major reason, the minor reason or one of several reasons why he left, more than what’s in the public domain I don’t know.

Re Mr. Faulds, I’ve never met or had any dealings with the gentleman, so I have no opinion as to whether he is a helicopter father or the greatest person since Mother Theresa or what.

Last year I attended several practices, I attended the end of season banquet and more recently spent a day watching one of the CU BB Elite camps at which almost all of our players worked. I have over the years watched numerous practices conducted by virtually all of our coaches since the early 70’s. Re the current coaching regime, I have never seen even the hint of anything unusual in terms of player-coach relations. The one thing that I did see this past year, which I feel free to share given that he is no longer at CU, is that at the practices that I saw—and I never asked whether that was typical or not, so don’t know—is that the player who repeatedly came in last in the multiple end to end sprints the players were made to run was Faulds. Again, I have no idea whether that was usual or unusual or whether that was a matter of stamina or conditioning or something temporary.



 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Meisner
07-29-18 06:05 PM - Post#259608    
    In response to AntiUngvar

The rebounding and block stats I was referencing weren’t totals. They are the percentage of available rebounds or blocks that each player got while they were in the game. When Faulds is on the floor he gets about 12.5 percent of the available rebounds, which is good (obviously the share of each player on the floor would be 10), but not particularly good for a big man. Tape and Meisner both get over 15%. On the defensive end, Meisner was at 25%. Blocks are the same — tape and Faulds are both 8-9%.

I personally agree with Engles on the big versus small thing, and most coaches these days seem to. It may be part of why the rebounding numbers for Faulds were so poor on the defensive end, too. It can be hard for a big at this level to step out and defend a smaller guy, and then be in position to rebound. So what you end up seeing is Faulds play against guys like Lewis and Rothschild, who aren’t threats away from the basket, and sit against a guy like Gettings who I suspect would eat him alive. As he gains experience, Faulds may turn that around (it took Gettings himself a year to figure it out).

On the offensive end and the Cambridge comments, the possession stats are again more complicated. Faulds has a very low usage rate, which is in part schematic, but also largely Faulds’ style of play. Cambridge used up 29% of Brown possessions while on the floor, while Faulds just used 16%. They operated at similar ORATs, but ORAT almost always goes down as usage increases. So presumably Faulds would be much less efficient if he was as much the focus as Cambridge, and Cambridge would be much more efficient if he picked his spots as much as Faulds.

A lot of Penn fans can relate to what is going on at Columbia. Dr. V is right that the odds of playing winning basketball go down if everyone is sniping at each other, and that extends from the team itself all the way out to the alums who support the program. I think sometimes we make it a lot harder for the teams and kids we root for to succeed because we go negative. I know that you feel that you are reacting to negativity that starts with the coach, but I suspect there are quite a few around the program who would say it starts somewhere else. Some of the negativity around and about Kyle might suggest that the issue could be cultural and go beyond the head coaches. All this said (and the reason I started with the Penn comment), there are instances when you absolutely have the wrong guy and need to call that out. I don’t have the answer — just trying to lend some perspective where it seems like it might have been lost by those too close to it. Given the track record of success at NJIT, i’d Be inclined to play this out for another couple of years. But the loss of Meisner makes it hard to see Columbia being real competitive this year.

Edited by SomeGuy on 07-29-18 06:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-29-18 07:09 PM - Post#259610    
    In response to Chet Forte

Chet:
There was a basketball assistant coach here in the Tommy Penders / mid seventies period named James Brown- coming from the projects of Long Island City, Queens, NY & having made it through Dartmouth College at a time when few if any blacks even ventured into the state of New Hampshire. James, IMHO, was the greatest player in the history of the Dartmouth program-hands down; better than the James Brown of Harvard, who went on to fame with CBS; and good enough to be drafted by the NBA in 1973. James had a signature line back then, when we talked about players' skill levels, etc.; which was, when you choose to 'butt'"UME" you often make an butt of you and me. If you choose to "assume" certain things, that's indeed your choice; but doing so without considering all of the empirical information before usually tends to, I think, dishonor your fine Columbia education. So you're NOT actually having to assume anything; just as the CU administration doesn't HAVE to keep Engles here -while waiting for another pair of Nike shoes to drop- simply because he's under contract; you're both actually, actively or passively, making choices.
And I must hold myself accountable, too, because, I've somehow and incorrectly presented Travis Faulds to you as Michigan's answer to Mother Teresa. I can see your interpretation of Travis's tweeting as plausible. I have a similar take to yours on that subject; though you may not be familiar with my own tweeting which at times, could by comparison, actually place Travis in a light alongside Mother Teresa!
I don't know how broad a range of life experiences you've had or how old you are, but as someone close to the end of the line, I do know there comes a time for most of us to plant our feet and take a stand in defense of a family member facing a possible crisis or in obvious need of assistance. You probably realize that student athletes coming to Columbia invariably don't come because of Chet Forte's Blog, or Tom's Restaurant or Kenneth Jackson's History of New York Seminar; whether they're coming from Melbourne, Australia; or Chaska, Minnesota; or Holt, Michigan- they're here PRIMARILY because of the trust they and their families placed in the sports coach who CONvinced them to come to New York City. And when it becomes obvious to a blind man that this trust has been misplaced, something has to be done, efficiently, powerfully and quickly, because that student athlete then often finds him/her self in quite a vulnerable position. For the Faulds family, I think that defining moment took place on the evening of January 27 in Ithaca, New York, at the Cornell campus.
In my view, Jim Engles is a small man in terms of character, with large insecurities connected to his very limited skill sets. I do believe that Engles, over time, grew more & more intimidated by the Travis Faulds persona; and why wouldn't he be? Travis being a much more polished, well rounded, and empathetic individual, who human beings of all backgrounds simply gravitate to. Engles knew that Travis had far more credibility than he, Engles could ever come close to matching with the Columbia athletes entrusted to him. Travis, unwittingly, made Engles all too aware of his insecurities; and the coach saw social media as simply an extension of how people like Travis made him appear so feeble by comparison.
#%$@ YOU to the Faulds family- and make no mistake about it; this was a FOCK YOU production orchestrated by a piece of excrement given human form by a Brooks Brothers suit.
So if you're to ASSume Jaron got the overall playing time he deserved, then ASSume further that he deserved ZERO minutes of playing time that night in Ithaca, too; and ASSume further still, that we all deserved witnessing the nightmarish season as it played out; and which we're still paying for in terms of shoes/Nikes dropping since the nineteenth Lions loss in Cambridge on March 3rd- IMHO, look for one more pair to drop before Labor Day.


 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-29-18 07:29 PM - Post#259612    
    In response to Dr. V

Sir: You're entitled to say whatever you wish to say herein. However, you will never succeed in censuring or marginalizing me. Furthermore, you should know that broaching this issue of medication FULLY discredits you as a supposedly educated and humane person. And, at the very least, you are surely a learned and reasonably intelligent fellow, who by this time knows how to reach out to me. Please do so, and I'll make arrangements to meet with you at your complete and soonest convenience to more than state my case to you to you, in person completely, thoroughly and in a manner that's not possible within the framework of this forum. Thank you, and do enjoy the rest of your evening.


 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
Re: Meisner
07-29-18 07:33 PM - Post#259613    
    In response to SomeGuy

Track record of success? Engles lost 30 games one year at NJIT; given the opportunity, that piece of history may soon repeat itself.


 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-29-18 10:15 PM - Post#259616    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Chet, I inadvertently blew up a piece of that message- my apologies. Basically, my contention is that Engles threw away that game at Cornell because he needed to make a statement to Travis. Crazy, perhaps. But not so when you factor in Engles's concerns about criticism of him on social media.


 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Meisner
07-29-18 11:01 PM - Post#259618    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Right. But that was a team that had just recently come from division III and had won zero games the year before he took over. The 1-30 season is actually part of what makes their rise under Engles so remarkable. He took what was quite literally the worst team in division 1 and made them a 20 game winner in a remarkably short period of time.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
07-29-18 11:19 PM - Post#259619    
    In response to AntiUngvar

This is kind of cryptic. What exactly was the “defining moment” in Ithaca?

 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
Re: Meisner
07-29-18 11:33 PM - Post#259620    
    In response to SomeGuy

And he then took a program here, that won 100 games over the course of 6 years, and turned it into a laughing stock in a matter of less than eighteen months.


 
AntiUngvar 
Masters Student
Posts: 530

Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
07-29-18 11:45 PM - Post#259621    
    In response to SomeGuy

I'll get back to you tomorrow on that Some Guy. I do like you SG- but stick to analytics, though I'd love to know where you get these available rebound numbers from! And then when you get into your "suspicions" and "presumptions", I'm tempted to suggest you place those in a neat pile and apply them forcefully where the sun doesn't shine. Thank you.


 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
07-30-18 01:58 AM - Post#259622    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Well, I’m not certain which presumptions and assumptions are bothering you, but my presumptions in regard to offensive efficiency (when I used the word “presumably”) are analytically driven. Rebounding percentage and block percentage are available in various places, but the easiest for me to use is college basketball reference:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/


 
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