Mike Valmas
Freshman
Posts: 26
Age: 94
Reg: 07-30-18
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Northwestern
08-22-18 11:29 AM - Post#260605
In response to AntiUngvar
Mike Smith is a really good player and happens to be a nice kid as well, yet you just can't help bashing him every chance you get. Your arrogant disrespect of the kid is shameful.
Also, your claim that Forte scored twice as many points while taking the same number of shots is clearly a lie.
Edited by Mike Valmas on 08-22-18 11:37 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32811
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Northwestern
08-22-18 11:53 AM - Post#260608
In response to Mike Valmas
Chet Forte shot 40.6% for a career at Columbia. Mike Smith has shot 39.5% overall and 42.5% from 2. So they are virtually equivalent. While it is almost impossible to compare eras, it is simply stupid to criticize Mike Smith as a player--he is one of the two most dynamic guards in the Ivy League and is a very good player. Certainly, Columbia has its weaknesses as a team--Mike Smith is not one of them.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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08-22-18 01:47 PM - Post#260613
In response to palestra38
To be clear, Mike Smith is a much better player than I ever could have hoped to have been. Now if Mike could only add the two handed set shot to his repertoire...
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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Northwestern
08-22-18 05:28 PM - Post#260618
In response to Chet Forte
Chet:
I simply refuse to take your devotion /deference to smIth seriously. But maybe you'll convince me when he wins a Haggerty Award, emblematic of being the best college player in New York, as YOU did; or perhaps when he scores 28.9 points per game his senior year, as YOU did; good for 3rd in the nation, and it would have been 35 PPG were you playing with a 3 point shot at the time; or when he's named NCAA Player of the Year, as YOU were, ahead of Chamberlain. Or when he's part of the NBA Draftas a selected player, as you, in fact, once were.
Most of all, I may start to believe you, when he leads his team to ONE winning season; something you accomplished THREE times in the mid-fifties- that was 50 wins; 30 Ivy wins; and a 70%(W/L Pct.). His teams have won at a 30% (W/L Pct.) rate. In fact, the only signature CU win of last season, against Harvard in February, featured a CU starting lineup without him in it- were he really of NBA talent, one would think he'd carry a team to a few more wins than has been the case; wouldn't you agree?
Edited by AntiUngvar on 08-22-18 05:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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 08-23-18 07:34 AM - Post#260627
In response to AntiUngvar
You will recall that Mike did not start the Harvard game for some unexplained reason, but that he took it over when he got on the floor. He went off for around 20 points or so, ran the Harvard backcourt ragged, and was the best player on the court that evening. I am admittedly modest, so I will not compare my career to his at this point. All I am saying is that his overall talent level is exceptional. In any event, thanks for the kudos.
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Mike Valmas
Freshman
Posts: 26
Age: 94
Reg: 07-30-18
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Re: Northwestern
08-23-18 08:25 AM - Post#260629
In response to AntiUngvar
Take another bong hit.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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 08-23-18 12:51 PM - Post#260639
In response to Mike Valmas
What is a “bong hit� Remember I’m a creature from the 50s.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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08-23-18 01:11 PM - Post#260641
In response to Chet Forte
Chet:
Hard to say for sure; but judging by his tweets (I must say, the man's hardly the fan of #12 that you are), I inferred he was channeling the sound immediately following a typical mIkesmIth field goal attempt. Of course, it's been sounding less "bong" and more "clang" to me; and now I see he's mentioning a crack pipes if you wander over to the Smith thread- who knows?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Northwestern
08-27-18 10:33 PM - Post#260725
In response to palestra38
On the era thing, Smith’s 39% is way different from Forte’s 40%. Forte shot 40% on a team that shot 39% overall while winning more than it lost and allowing under 35%. Smith shot 39% on a team that shot 44% overall while losing more than it won and allowing 45%. The game was played less efficiently back then.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32811
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Northwestern
08-28-18 08:20 AM - Post#260728
In response to SomeGuy
I look at that completely differently than you. Forte was a very very good player on a team which challenged (but still did not win) all 3 of his years. Smith was a very good player on a pretty bad team. He took a far lower percentage of overall shots (CU was first in the Ivies in shots taken last year) but was the guy who had the ball in his hands and had to take the tough shots when no one else could get one off. And of course, his overall percentage was lower due to his .31 3 point shooting, something not a factor in Forte's day. So any kind of comparison is really difficult. All we can say is that Forte was a great player in his era. Smith is not as great a player in his. But how much of that is due to the lack of talent on the team and coaching scheme? All I can tell you that as a primary Penn fan, I would take him in a minute as Penn's starting point guard.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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08-28-18 10:27 AM - Post#260734
In response to palestra38
Totally agree with P38. Look at the Columbia @Penn game last season. Columbia struggled in the first half when Smith tried to get others involved and collectively Adlesh, Hickman, Tape and Meisner were 3-19 and the team scored 28 pts against the top defense in the league.
Second half after Penn built a 13 pt lead, Smith took over scoring 23 of Columbia's 43 pts and getting the Lions back in the game.
He took over because he was the only one who could. it didn't always work, but he showed he is an elite Ivy talent to me that night. I would take him right now on our team!
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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08-28-18 12:36 PM - Post#260743
In response to PennFan10
I do enjoy the united/spirited Philly commentary; but that Palestra game also saw Smith produce a 0/4, assist to turnover ratio. We could also look the coaching that night- Engles kept Smith out there for 40 minutes- very questionable; as Chet Forte would write, Smith's often asked to do too much; and maybe the 26 minutes he played at home again Harvard in that game Chet reference is more appropriate for Smith and for his team.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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08-28-18 01:45 PM - Post#260748
In response to AntiUngvar
Hard to have assists when your teammates go 17-48 from the field. Smith had the highest assist rate in the IL last year and top five A/TO. That's not the path you want to go down if you want to keep bashing Smith. He needs help. Take him off the floor and you have almost nothing left.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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08-28-18 09:27 PM - Post#260766
In response to PennFan10
Well, I’d add some nuance here too — i think bashing Smith’s offense is a silly way to go. At worst, he is an above average offensive player, even carrying more than his share of the burden. We can argue about the degree to which he is good, but as somebody else said, offensively he is the least of Columbia’s worries (it really isn’t a team issue for Columbia either — they had the best offense in the league last year). Defense is the issue for both the team and for Smith, and that is why I am far less certain of what is role would be at Penn.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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08-28-18 10:58 PM - Post#260770
In response to SomeGuy
Adlesh made about 40% of his threes last year, somewhere near the top of the league. Steph had some very productive minutes. Ditto Tape.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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08-29-18 12:32 PM - Post#260780
In response to internetter
Internetter-
PLEASE be kinder to your West Coast brethren: Quinton Adlesh, from the Bay Area, actually just shot a sliver under 45% from outside the arc- good for 24th in the NATION! Even SomeGuy, in a rare moment of clarity, wrote that Adlesh deserved more shot opportunities. But I have to laugh at the Philly connection (not as much as Steve Donahue would laugh at them, since he never for even a minute recruited Columbia's point guard); attempting to lecture me about supposed bashing, while they go on to completely dismiss the roster of individuals that the lead CUguard played with: check it out- in addition to Adlesh, perhaps the best long distance shooter in the history of Columbia's program, last year's team featured 2 players who've drawn interest from Xavier University in Cincinnati; 1 player who'll be at the University of Michigan; 1 other, still, who'll be suiting up for one of the better professional teams in Germany; and 1 other, who was a two-time Ivy League Rookie of the Week performer. Any true Division-1 coach -Jones of Yale, Tommy Amaker or Steve Donahue- would have won at least sixteen games with last season's CU team; no doubt.
Going back to that Palestra game on Jan.13: 3 Columbia players that night (Adlesh, Faulds and Stefanini) combined to shoot 13/29, higher than Smith's percentage; but none of those 13 baskets came via a Smith pass. The Palestra man makes a martyr of Smith, writing that he had the ball in hands, and had take tough shots when nobody else could- that would resonate with me, if Smith actually converted on a reasonable percentage of those attempts- but to take 200 more shots than anyone else/ miss most of them/ have the losses mount- seems to me a competent coach would have implemented some other (any other) strategy. SomeGuy insists that offense wasn't the problem; but your offensive approach usually does relate to how effective your defense will/can be. SomeGuy also says it's silly to criticize Smith's offense; much as ChetForte stated that Smith's misses are beside the point- try selling that notion to the people who have to share the court with Smith! NateHickman, a real contributor for Columbia teams 3 & 4 years ago, NEVER looked comfortable on the court with Smith. It's a natural fact about any ecosystem, that the interacting organisms look to make sense of their environment- Chet Forte's teammates were accepting of the attention Chet received; perhaps because he made big shots and his teams won. That's not the case today; and the exodus of CU players we've been witnessing is at least partially rooted in player dissatisfaction along the lines herein outlined.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32811
Reg: 11-21-04
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08-29-18 01:23 PM - Post#260782
In response to AntiUngvar
What it all means is that when CU played teams that play tough defense (like Penn), only Smith could get off any shots. Just look at those games---Villanova, Penn State, UConn, Albany, BC and at Penn, Smith got off over 20 shots each game (usually against the opponents' best defender) while with the exception of UConn (not that good last year), no one else on the team got off more than 9 shots.
Say what you will, but when no one else can get off a shot, someone has to do it. CU's real problem was getting destroyed inside (and that is unlikely to change this year). You can criticize the game plan if you want, but Smith is an all-Ivy type player. No one else is.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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08-29-18 02:10 PM - Post#260783
In response to palestra38
No one else can get a shot off because they'll need to expend all their energies prying the ball out of Smith's hands before they can actually do anything positive with it! Columbia's NEVER won a game when Smith takes the ridiculous amount of 20 or more shots; and they never will! Even the great Larry Brown had to employ a euphemism in referencing Smith' shot happy nature last month- YOU say he's all-Ivy, playing with Columbia non-entities; but Brown puts this kid on a team with some of the top NCAA underclassmen in the country; and playing in Italy 3 weeks ago, Smith produced a classic Smith line in a game wherein the Italians crushed the Americans: 15 minutes played/ 3-11 FGPct./ ZERO assists/ 3 turnovers. Are you going to tell me that he was playing with non-entities in Italy, too??? No, you can't; but Smith is Smith wherever he goes; just as Trump is Trump, with his base refusing to acknowledge a thing about his depraved nature.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32811
Reg: 11-21-04
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08-29-18 02:19 PM - Post#260785
In response to AntiUngvar
Let's leave Trump out of this, unless you want to comment down in the off-topic board. But you're not seriously contending that an exhibition game with no real practice time constitutes any kind of insight as to his game.
Well, we're not going to agree on this.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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08-29-18 02:23 PM - Post#260786
In response to palestra38
Adlesh did: @Pr made 5 of 10; H 7 of 11; @Y 5-8. He also shot many vs other tough teams but not as successfully
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