bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-09-18 08:26 PM - Post#261061
What’s it say about Bucknell Football that :
Joe Susan has been here for nearly a decade, and we are still a 5-6/6-5 team. If you think he is a good coach, then what is the problem, what is he not being given to make the Bison a consistent winner.
More than 24 hours after a hard fought, but nonetheless convincing loss to Sacred Heart (who?)nary a word appeared on this board about what happened yesterday live on the Stadium network and Facebook. Apparently nobody cares. This bothers me because when I attended Bucknell (a very long time ago) Football mattered. Basketball got a lot of interest, but FB was the big sport. I for one, am delighted at the rise of BU Basketball, but the total lack of interest in football, as evidenced by very low attendance, and continued run of .500 at best seasons disturbs me. Having a TV game is embarrassing when the stands are virtually empty. I know the weather was bad yesterday, but I also know that the stands would have been sparsely populated regardless.
If the University does not care about football, why not just give it up and put the money toward getting basketball teams that can win games in theDance? Otherwise how about committing to do what it takes to field a winner?
Just sayin’
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KenZ
Postdoc
Posts: 2777
Reg: 01-23-06
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Bucknell FB
09-09-18 09:26 PM - Post#261062
In response to bison63
i think you ask some very valid questions. with the exception of a few years during the Gadd era this has been the story of Bucknell football for 30+ years. i won't attempt to speak for others, but for me it has simply felt too futile to get invested or even bother debating these questions on the board when nothing changes whether it is required administrative commitment:
- to provride lacking financial resources if that is the problem, or
- to address the coaching/internal problems if the necessary resources have been provided.
if we want to have a debate on your last points, let it begin
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Bison69
Freshman
Posts: 11
Reg: 03-03-12
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Bucknell FB
09-10-18 01:41 AM - Post#261068
In response to KenZ
Thank you for posting this bison63. I share your dismay and frustration. Football was better supported by students when I went there, lo these many decades ago, but it would probably be inaccurate to say there was good support even then. Lewisburg High games on Friday nights substantially outdrew the Bison in the same stadium.
I was an unrecruited walk-on and the facilities were unbelievably poor at the time. I played in HS at the smallest NJ school with a football program and even we had better facilities then than BU. I know the stadium was refurbished a number of years ago but I can't imagine they are a selling point.
My years at BU proved to be transitional ones for the football program. Before I went there, we had mostly winning years and the prior head coach, Bob Odell had been very successful. During my 4 years, the Carroll Huntress years, we went 19-19 and with the exception of Gadd have had losing coach after losing coach after losing coach since. I was optimistic Susan would stop the slide. After all, he knew the school, was well connected and recruited throughout the area for years, had been associated with the turnaround at Rutgers and had even been head coach for a year and been undefeated. What more could you ask for? The fact that his tenure has done little to restore the program suggests to me the problem is not the coaching staff but has to do with how the university regards football and that it's a problem some 50 years in the making.
Personally, after ~50 years of hoping for a turnaround I have begun to think that if the administration doesn't care that 5-6 is now the high water mark for the program then it's time to drop the sport. Student athletes who commit their collegiate years to represent the university deserve better support than this and this level of performance is doing nothing for the university's image.
Edited by Bison69 on 09-10-18 01:45 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-10-18 10:16 AM - Post#261073
In response to Bison69
I share the frustration. I few quick comments.
1. Bucknell has not supported the program to allow it to compete on a level playing field. Facilities are below average, and for years they have put off building a new football/lacrosse facility that has been on the drawing board. Bucknell always gave a lot less athletic aid than other PL schools. When the league went to scholarships, I thought that would level the playing field. It did to some extent, but apparently not completely. Here is what the PL schools have averaged in expenditures on scholarships, salaries, and recruiting over the past two years:
Bucknell University $4,588,818.50
Colgate University $5,211,155.50
College of the Holy Cross $4,837,320.00
Fordham University $5,881,798.50
Lafayette College $5,585,045.50
Lehigh University $4,601,184.00
Part of the difference is that Bucknell employs two fewer assistant coaches than any other PL team - which is an important difference that helps point out the unlevel playing field.
2. Other than Bucknell and Georgetown, all other PL members always have a number of 5th year players (those who allegedly lost a year due to injury). If you look back at rosters for Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Fordham, and Colgate, they have each had over fifty 5th year players over the past 15 years. Bucknell has had ZERO. BU administration makes it extremely hard to get clearance for a 5th year and I am not sure what the position is of the coaching staff. In any event, having four or five fifth year players every year is a huge advantage. Further, many of BU's OOC opponents, schhols like William & Mary and Sacred Heart, redshirt most of their players - which gives them an advantage that is very hard to overcome.
3. I also had hopes that Susan would improve things. I think he is a really good guy, but it appaers he is in way over his head for this situation. His offense looks like something copied from an old Woody Hayes playbook. Despite a mediocre line, they attempt to overpower the other team with the running game or with passes thrown less than 3 yards down the field. Only once or twice a game do they try to throw long - which allows the opposing defense to crowd the line. I used to think the problem was the OC, until two years ago when they brought in a new OC known for a wide-open offense. Despite the new OC, nothing has changed - which makes it apparent that the problem is with the head coach. To give the team any chance to be competitive, they need to totally open up the offense, eliminate the predictability, and throw down the field occasionally. I realize that there is a QB issue, but the current offensive scheme makes it that much harder for whoever plays the position.
At the end of the season, I think it is time for a coaching change. Take a chance on a young, aggressive coordinator, one who will leave the program in five years if he is successful, instead of going with a mediocre coach who is willing to stay for his whole career.
4. As for the crowds, as 63 pointed out Saturday's crowd in the rain was disappointing. However the previous week they drew over 5000, including a decent student turnout. That is more than Colgate or Fordham typically draw. They will almost never outdraw Lehigh, Lafayette, or HC - who are located in large population centers with tens of thousand of alums nearly - but only a few thousand less. If the Bison were successful, they could draw almost as many. One thing that's certain is that after years of neglect, Bucknell finally has started marketing the team more aggressively. But it will take some success on the field before crowds pick up. It also would help if they didn't play such boring football.
5. As for dropping football, that argument can certainly be made - but I think it would anger a lot of alums and possibly cost Bucknell a significant amount of donations and a certain percentage of student applications. The better solution imo is to fix the problem, and not just put a band-aid on it, which has been the traditional approach.
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Bucknellbisonfan21
Masters Student
Posts: 548
Loc: Bloomsburg
Reg: 11-12-15
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09-10-18 11:01 AM - Post#261076
In response to Bison137
I could actually hear the Sacred Heart coaches calling out some of bucknell’s plays before the ball was snapped and they were mostly correct.
I actually think the future could have some potential if they can build around the freshman running back (can’t remember name or number off the top of my head) and the freshman receiver (number 5). Both seem like they will be good players. I think a big key in building around them will be getting a quarterback who is a threat to run. Every team we play seems to always have a quarterback who can run and is a threat to keep the ball in read option plays. Susan seems to like the pocket passing type QB’s so it might take a coaching change to get a running QB.
I can’t speak for the locker room facilities but from a fans perspective I like the game day experience at Christy Mathewson with the exception of one thing. The stadium desperately needs a new scoreboard, the current one is probably from the 80’s .
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-10-18 11:10 AM - Post#261078
In response to Bison137
Thanks for the input. Glad to see I am not the only one feeling this way. I should also have recognized in my original post, that Coach Susan HAS ended the era of Bucknell as the laughing stock of the PL. 5-6 is better than 3-8 and 50 point losses to Lehigh.I think 69 echoed what I am thinking, that the problem is a lot higher than the coach, but 137 as usual raises a lot of interesting points. As for a new coach after this season, I am not there yet UNLESS, the new AD is convinced that the problem is coaching as opposed to support, and that he in turn is committed to fixing the problem. I doubt that he has at this early stage of his tenure arrived at any definitive conclusions about the coaching staff, but who knows?
As for crowds, 69 is right, Lewisburg and the surrounding area was never Gaga over BU. football. HS Friday night lights was the king. Nonetheless, students turned out in much larger numbers than now ( with a student body of half today’s). I do remember a crowd of 10,000 for a Homecoming game. This in the day when there was a Homecoming parade featuring area HS bands which attended the game afterwards. The bands, alums helped swell that crowd from the more typical 5,000 in those days. It was also a winning program as that was the O’dell era. My freshman year the team was 4-5 with a huge home win over Rutgers (15-8). After that season the team won two of the next four Lambert Cups and missed a third by virtue of a 9-6 loss to Delaware in Newark that led to the Hens getting the cup. O’dell went to his alma mater Penn a few years later, and the slide began.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-10-18 11:37 AM - Post#261079
In response to bison63
One comment on student support. Sadly students don't support football at any PL schools or similar schools. As good as Lehigh and Colgate and Fordham have been, they draw very few students. And HC and LC draw even less. That is the way things are these days. But Bucknell student support is not worse than at other PL schools, especially when you consider the lack of success.
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JPM
Masters Student
Posts: 449
Reg: 05-20-08
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09-10-18 03:44 PM - Post#261083
In response to Bison137
I spoke to a trustee of an Ivy university over the weekend. His view is that at least one Ivy will drop football in the next 10-15 years. He cited the health issues (primarily CTE) inherent in football as a driving factor.
In the longer run, he believes that football will become a regional sport (similar to lacrosse) outside the P-5 conferences.
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Bison54
PhD Student
Posts: 1800
Reg: 11-18-09
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09-10-18 05:19 PM - Post#261085
In response to JPM
That's not a surprise. My understanding is that participation in various youth football programs is down, and further that participation in high school programs is also down. Some programs are being cancelled because of declining participation, one HS in NJ recently cancelled its schedule as they had only 22 participants.
Some of this is attributed to concerns with regard to head injury, and some is attributed to the number of other sports alternatives available to youth.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-10-18 06:16 PM - Post#261087
In response to Bison54
I think the players now playing football will show a very significant drop in the pct with CTE due to the concussion protocols that have been developed. Many NFL players in the past had over 20 concussions. Some had more than 50 based on reasonable estimates. Some had 2 or 3 in one game, a situation that doctors say dramatically increases the probability of permanent damage. I even know of high school players who had two or more in one game and five or more during their HS career. That rarely if ever happens with the new protocols. It shouldn't ever happen.
One other thing is that the many rule changes have clearly affected the safety of the game, banning blows to the head and most helmet-to-helmet contact. Also the new NFL kickoff rule should eliminate many concussions, which are much more prevalent on kickoffs than on other plays.
By the time football has been shown to be safer, however, the number of people playing it may have declined markedly.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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09-10-18 08:20 PM - Post#261091
In response to Bison137
Here's my opinion, though I have no right to an opinion having attended exactly one BU football game (Fordham in 2014 - quite a game).
Most of the issues stem from:
1. more stringent academic standards than other PL schools
2. lack of flexibility in academic scheduling (most, if not all, other PL schools carve out 2-3 hours for extra curricular activities
3. excess influence of faculty in setting university policy (see above)
4. lack of support from university administration (including funding support)
5. lack of tradition
Other schools use some or all of these as recruiting tools against us.
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A Western Bison
Sophomore
Posts: 179
Age: 65
Loc: Albuquerque
Reg: 07-05-12
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09-11-18 01:25 AM - Post#261100
In response to jkrun80
I appreciate this discussion tremendously. The entire conference is engaged in some soul-searching regarding football, as no one seems to be where they had hoped this far into the scholarship era.
The red-shirt situation is my greatest concern, because if William and Mary can basically give everyone an extra year, that year is of seniority, size and maturity is gained over the PL in general and Bucknell in particular. I don't know, but such a shift would not only have its only direct costs, but also be reflected in Title IX commitments.
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RichH
Sophomore
Posts: 159
Age: 76
Reg: 01-30-12
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09-11-18 01:02 PM - Post#261109
In response to A Western Bison
From the outside, much of what has been said here echoes what I've read on all our boards from time to time. Agree, I think administration support and the Head Coach may be the major issues. The talent level at Bucknell is not vastly different than most PL squads. Offensive scheme seems adequate to get yards but not to score points.In scouting Bison, most concentrate on the vanilla O and QB. I note your frosh QB has the potential to be a real difference maker. Dont know whether that is possible in your current offensive scheme.
As to the rest, we are all feeling the pain of PL restrictions and, in my opinion, a poor transition to schollie recruiting.In order to compete better in OOC games, we need more better players. That entails a lot of luck with with partials and/or giving more full rides. Lehigh has opted for the latter the last 2 years. We did get much better classes but we we now have only 78 on the roster. Admittedly, we also lost 5-6 players due to jnjuries, some of which ended careers. Situation does highlight tho the problem with roster and schollie caps. There is no leeway at all for coaches to adjust to the not uncommon events that occur in every progam.
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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09-12-18 07:32 AM - Post#261126
In response to RichH
Everything else has been covered here so I’ll just chip in with a question: How many other head coaches would still have a job with Susan’s record at any other school? In my mind, zero.
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DoCtoR62
Masters Student
Posts: 463
Reg: 05-18-08
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09-12-18 01:03 PM - Post#261154
In response to HuskyColonial
Bucknell has seemingly always been hesitant when making changes to the football staff. I think it is both an acknowledgement the University's support might not be on par with the competition as well as a lack of willingness to invest more into the program. Almost any new, respected head coach would come in with demands to upgrade the program.
The future of the program is, IMO, up for great debate. The previous AD was a football guy. His accomplishments at Bucknell were many, yet he could never get the football program to a competitive level.
A cost/benefit analysis of upgrading football vs an analysis of dropping it is likely happening on many campuses. At Bucknell (and I assume other places), that analysis will likely be very different in the not too distant future when the most ardent alumni supporters are lost. We know there is still strong interest and support from those in the '60s, but do we really think alums from the last 30-40 years will be as passionate about the program? I don't.
Within the last decade, both Hofstra and Northeastern dropped football, not because they could not afford it, but because they could not afford to excel in it. If the University ever decides mediocre is no longer acceptable, I'm guessing they'd make the same decision (w/o some type of change to NCAA rules that would allow a change to a lower level).
One last obstacle not mentioned above is Penn State. I know when I was at Bucknell in the '80s, there were many Lewisburg residents who were both fans of Bucknell and even friends of the coaching staff who would choose Penn State games over Bucknell games ... either driving to Beaver Stadium or staying home to watch on TV. With no student support (which Bison137 notes is universal), no local support (prefer PSU) and no young alumni connection, who do we think we can build a tradition off of?
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Bison89
Professor
Posts: 5370
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-14-07
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09-12-18 01:23 PM - Post#261155
In response to HuskyColonial
Everything else has been covered here so I’ll just chip in with a question: How many other head coaches would still have a job with Susan’s record at any other school? In my mind, zero.
Husky, that is a valid point. I was recruited by Coach Susan a LONG time ago. He is a very nice guy who is hard working, but he is not having a lot of success in the W column. Personally, I think that a younger, hungry coach might be the way to go. We need to keep in mind that a younger coach would treat Bucknell as a stepping stone.
| New season, new team, new dream . . . |
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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09-12-18 01:52 PM - Post#261158
In response to DoCtoR62
Why isn't Bucknell playing Penn State? or Pitt or Ohio State?
If funding is a problem, take a $1 million paycheck game each year while giving the guys a change to play on a huge stage.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-12-18 03:15 PM - Post#261161
In response to HuskyColonial
I know a few years ago they were well into negotiations to play PSU, but then the Big Ten issued an edict about no more scheduling of FCS teams. That ended those discussions. Later they rescinded the rule, but I don't think any new discussions occurred.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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09-12-18 06:27 PM - Post#261169
In response to HuskyColonial
Why isn't Bucknell playing Penn State? or Pitt or Ohio State?
If funding is a problem, take a $1 million paycheck game each year while giving the guys a change to play on a huge stage.
Because they don't want to lose 77-0. I don't see how that helps the program other than financially.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
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Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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09-12-18 06:32 PM - Post#261170
In response to HuskyColonial
Everything else has been covered here so I’ll just chip in with a question: How many other head coaches would still have a job with Susan’s record at any other school? In my mind, zero.
There is a good culture among the team, they are very successful academically, so that somewhat offsets the mediocre results (with the exception of 2014). I've heard coaches of other sports say it's remarkable he's maintained a .500 average given the obstacles the administration places in his way. But cuts in Athletics in the next few years wouldn't surprise me and football will be looked at long and hard.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-12-18 07:08 PM - Post#261175
In response to Bison137
DoC62 raises some interesting points and may have put his finger on th elephant in the room that nobody is talking about. The fact that Bucknell and colleges of our ilk, including the Ivies may be greasing the skids to drop FB. Given what’s now known about FB, re: concussions, and the fact that you do not see a lot of 80 year old former NFL ers around and that those older ex pros likely suffer from severe dementia, it becomes pretty difficult for an academically oriented school (funny, would you not think that by definition all schools would be “ academically orientedâ€) to justify playing a sport that risks damaging the very body organ that the school is trying to nourish and develop.
A few years ago one of the players on those early ‘60s Odell teams, who lives in the Lewisburg area, ventured the opinion to me that football would be gone in10 years. Given the shrinking pipeline of personnel, it probably is likely that football is doomed. In fact I believe that the moms of America would succeed in killing FB if there were not such big bucks accruing to those with a vested interest in keeping it going. I am of course referring to the power conference schools, the NFL, the TV networks etc. I have to admit to mixed emotions. On the one hand I do not want my grandkids concussed, on the other hand: J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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09-23-18 10:24 AM - Post#261560
In response to bison63
I feel badly for the team. I know they're putting in the work, but the last 2-1/2 games have been ugly. Let's hope things improve in the PL season. Tough one on the road a HC to start.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-23-18 03:27 PM - Post#261562
In response to jkrun80
Somebody needs to take a long hard look at this situation and decide on which direction we go from here. Support the program, or drop the program.
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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09-23-18 05:44 PM - Post#261563
In response to bison63
Support the program. Too much history and it doesn't take much to turn a program around. However the Administration may also say we are the basketball elites and will invest in Lacrosse rather than football.
But a decision does need made because it is ashame for these kids.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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09-23-18 07:19 PM - Post#261565
In response to HuskyColonial
The Patriot League looks very weak this year, so there is some hope we could go 3-3 or even 4-2 in the league. Fordham and Lafayette are 0-4 and have scored fewer points and given up more than we have. Lafayette lost to Colgate 49-0 this weekend. Lehigh and HC are 1-3 and have also given up more points than us, but they also played Navy and BC respectively. Lehigh did lose to Penn by a larger margin than we did, but played Villanova much closer. Georgetown is also 1-3 including a 41-0 loss to Dartmouth. Colgate seems to be the only strong team this year.
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Bison89
Professor
Posts: 5370
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-14-07
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09-23-18 09:50 PM - Post#261567
In response to jkrun80
Saturday's game was the first Bucknell football game that I have gone to in years. It was evident that there is a significant talent gap between Nova and Bucknell. To be honest, I expected Bucknell to lose, but the way that they lost was difficult to watch. The Bison got beaten in just about every aspect of the game.
The players seemed to try their best, but the talent just doesn't seem to be there.
| New season, new team, new dream . . . |
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Doktore K
Masters Student
Posts: 473
Reg: 11-11-09
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09-24-18 09:59 AM - Post#261569
In response to Bison89
I live in the Philly suburbs and follow Villanova sports pretty closely, yes even the Nova football team. But I had little interest in attending this game. It turned out uglier than I thought. Here are a few stats that are stark and disappointing: We had 87 yards passing for the game, despite being way behind and forced to pass nearly every play in the second half. Less than 100 yards passing for the game? We were down 42-7 at the half. Nova was motivated and angry after being upset by Towson (45-38) the prior week.
But Towson (not an annual football power) racked up over 500 yards of total offense vs. Nova, including 320 yards passing, and scored 35 points in the first half vs. the Wildcats!
I'm not usually one to cut right to the point but when your best player is your punter, you are a football team with multiple issues. We don't seem to have the size, speed or skills to compete well with teams like Penn (IVY LEAGUE) or Villanova ("basketball school").
Hopefully, the Patriot League (as noted above) is weak overall this year and will be an easier task for our football team. After the last two weeks, it has to get better but significant changes need to be made. I am 100% in favor of keeping and improving the program. One of my thoughts is that we should look long and hard at what Tom Gadd did so well over his successful term-- how did he and his staff break the "blah" seasons and tenures of other coaches here??
Thoughts on improving this picture?
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BisonRoadWarrior
Professor
Posts: 5203
Loc: Where the Bison Roam
Reg: 08-16-06
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09-29-18 01:30 PM - Post#261688
In response to Doktore K
Anyone else having Roku trouble for the Holy Cross game?
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JDBison2010
Masters Student
Posts: 763
Loc: Charleston, SC
Reg: 11-23-10
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09-29-18 01:39 PM - Post#261689
In response to BisonRoadWarrior
Using Roku. No issues for me
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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09-29-18 02:18 PM - Post#261690
In response to JDBison2010
No issues for me!
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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Bucknell FB
09-29-18 04:21 PM - Post#261691
In response to bison63
Bucknell breaks into the win column with a 19-16 win at Holy Cross. The defense was stellar, until we took a 19-7 lead, then we gave up lots of big plays. HC passed from deep In their own territory to inside our 10. The then rushed to inside the one where we held them twice. Announcers claimed that one of those rushes was a touchdown and showed a replay to prove it. Only thing was I did not think the replay showed anything. You could not see the ball. So now we take over and there is an apparent safety. Only problem was refs did not agree and spotted the ball for no loss, still inside the one. Another rush, and this time the safety is called. O holy day cry the announcers, what a huge play. Well let’s just assume that the refs once again did not call the safety, and replaced the ball on the six inch line. What does Bucknell do then. They would take an intentional safety so as not to have to kick from a short punt formation from the back of the end zone. Give up the two points and get s free kick from the 20. So the fact that Holy Cross actually forced the safety was no big deal, since the next play would have been an intentional safety( and if it was not, then Susan should be fired right now).
Unfortunately, after the free kick, it took HC just over a minute to score a TD and draw within 3. At that point are defense became stellar again and our no yardage offense started gobbling up yards (and time). Good win.
Edited by bison63 on 09-29-18 04:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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Re: Bucknell FB
09-29-18 06:13 PM - Post#261693
In response to bison63
Unfortunately, after the free kick, it took HC just over a minute to score a TD and draw within 3. At that point are defense became stellar again and our no yardage offense started gobbling up yards (and time). Good win.
This is a good win. But once they went up 12, they were clearly playing not to lose. They got a break on that roughing the punter call, which could have gone either way. The defense stepped up at the end when in counted. The offense played well between the 20's. The play calling at the goal line (at both ends) was questionable.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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09-29-18 08:41 PM - Post#261694
In response to jkrun80
Colgate is up 23-0 on W&M. Don't get your hopes up for next week's game.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-09-18 03:15 PM - Post#262283
In response to jkrun80
Just wondering if any of our “insider†posters have any insights into the new AD’s thoughts re: the football program. Watching the home game against Colgate, the home crowd was particularly sparse. Never did get a wide shot of the Colgate crowd, but I’d bet it was bigger than ours.
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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10-09-18 05:46 PM - Post#262313
In response to bison63
Totally hypothetical question for alumni. If the football program became more competitive at the expense of the basketball program (zero sum game), would you take it?
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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10-09-18 07:16 PM - Post#262319
In response to HuskyColonial
Totally hypothetical question for alumni. If the football program became more competitive at the expense of the basketball program (zero sum game), would you take it?
No.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-10-18 03:28 PM - Post#262364
In response to jkrun80
When I attended Bucknell, I would have answered “yes.†Not so today, and here is why! Imagine every year in football that we played teams of the ilk of UCLA, USC or LSU, and we were actually given a fighting chance to win. And in fact, sometimes we did win. That is what we have in basketball. We compete on a far bigger stage. The favorable publicity for the school is something that cannot be bought.
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Bison89
Professor
Posts: 5370
Loc: Philadelphia
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10-10-18 03:57 PM - Post#262366
In response to jkrun80
Totally hypothetical question for alumni. If the football program became more competitive at the expense of the basketball program (zero sum game), would you take it?
No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im_5QdHp04E
| New season, new team, new dream . . . |
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bison63
Postdoc
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Reg: 01-23-06
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10-10-18 05:05 PM - Post#262375
In response to Bison89
Think I missed the point.
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Bison137
Professor
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10-10-18 05:52 PM - Post#262377
In response to HuskyColonial
Totally hypothetical question for alumni. If the football program became more competitive at the expense of the basketball program (zero sum game), would you take it?
Not an answer to your question, but it is worth pointing out that over the past few years Bucknell has spent less money on football and basketball combined than have all our PL foes who have football.
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DrBison
Junior
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Age: 73
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10-10-18 07:45 PM - Post#262382
In response to Bison137
And that applies to a lot of other sports. And that’s a damn shame!
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Bison89
Professor
Posts: 5370
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-14-07
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10-10-18 08:15 PM - Post#262386
In response to bison63
Think I missed the point.
The point is, NO, I would not support this.
| New season, new team, new dream . . . |
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Doktore K
Masters Student
Posts: 473
Reg: 11-11-09
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Re: Spending on football and BB programs
10-10-18 08:41 PM - Post#262387
In response to Bison137
B137-- Can you be more specific? Our rival schools in the PL spend more on FB and BB than us, or they spend more on just FB than we spend on both sports?
How can that be? Is it better alumni support from fund-raising or is it a matter of how the administration funds the sports programs?
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Doktore K
Masters Student
Posts: 473
Reg: 11-11-09
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10-10-18 08:48 PM - Post#262388
In response to HuskyColonial
No, no and no.
You do strike a nerve here but it' a crazy question for sure. We get dominated by Penn and Villanova, and you're asking if we would be interested in competing and maybe upsetting the likes of Penn State or UCLA?
Let's improve the football program and focus on beating Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate. Don't schedule Nova anytime soon. Or Army for gosh sakes.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: Spending on football and BB programs
10-10-18 10:20 PM - Post#262390
In response to Doktore K
B137-- Can you be more specific? Our rival schools in the PL spend more on FB and BB than us, or they spend more on just FB than we spend on both sports?
How can that be? Is it better alumni support from fund-raising or is it a matter of how the administration funds the sports programs?
If you add up what is spent on men's basketball and football, Bucknell has spent less than Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Fordham, and Colgate. Bucknell spends somewhat more on basketball than all but Fordham But it's spending on football is dwarfed by the others. BU has fewer coaches, generally poorer facilities, and very possibly fewer scholarships.
Bucknell administration in general has not been very supportive of sports other than basketball and, to some degree, track. For example, all PL men's soccer and lacrosse programs have scholarships, some 10 or more in each sport. But Bucknell has exactly zero. And women's soccer and lax - plus softball and volleyball - have fewer scholarships than the others. Then throw in the fact that Bucknell's administration is MUCH tougher than the other schools when it comes to allowing injury redshirts, and the playing field is far from level. Bucknell has generally managed to hold its own in mist sports due to very good coaches and facilities. But it is a tough fight.
Note: men's lax, soccer, etc do provide some financial assistance. But it is need-based or the occasional academic scholarship. This means many players can't be recruited and that parents often must fill out FAFSA and jump through hoops to qualify for aid. And after all of that, Bucknell still gives less overall aid than the other PL schools in these sports.
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BisonRoadWarrior
Professor
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10-10-18 10:36 PM - Post#262391
In response to Bison137
And yet, despite all that, we've finished second in the Presidents' Cup four years in a row. One could imagine how the administration and trustees might not be easily persuaded that they need to allocate more money to athletics.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-12-18 09:27 PM - Post#262501
In response to BisonRoadWarrior
Unfortunately the schedule this year was very bad in terms of how it lined up. To begin, Marist and Cornell were replaced by Villanova and Penn. Secondly, the bye comes very late. And most importanly, the Bison may be better than four league opponents (Lafayette, Georgetown, Fordham, and HC), but they play three of those teams at the end of the season. Also, they have a puncher's chance of beating Lehigh, who is not very good this year.
Sagarin rankings for the PL:
Colgate 55.6
Holy Cross 34.2 (already lost to Bucknell)
Lehigh 32.6
Bucknell 27.4
Georgetown 25.0
Lafayette 24.6
Fordham 22.5
The Bison, btw, may have their youngest starting lineup ever.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-20-18 04:38 PM - Post#263119
In response to Bison137
Totally unacceptable loss to Lafayette in Football on Homecoming. Dumb penalties, not a lot of offense, not much clutch defense. Really, support the program, or fold it up!
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
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10-20-18 06:08 PM - Post#263125
In response to bison63
This was probably the last chance to salvage some respectability for this season. Had they been able to win these last four games and finish the PL season 5-1, it would have somewhat offset all the OOC losses. If we can't beat Lafayette, there's not much hope of beating the other three teams.
BTW Georgetown beat Lehigh in OT to go 3-0 in the league and tie Colgate for first place.
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BisonRoadWarrior
Professor
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Loc: Where the Bison Roam
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10-21-18 01:48 AM - Post#263137
In response to jkrun80
Just as sweeping the Cowboys helps redeem a lousy Eagles season, I will now pin all my hopes on beating Lehigh.
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HoleinOne
Masters Student
Posts: 596
Loc: Bluffton, SC
Reg: 02-15-09
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Re: Spending on football and BB programs
10-21-18 12:09 PM - Post#263151
In response to Bison137
To expand this thought a bit, would support expanded support for lacrosse, soccer, and other sports that have a chance to not only win in the Patriot League but also gain greater national attention. Would not cost as much football and in some cases just simple changes in administrative approaches would help.
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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10-21-18 12:12 PM - Post#263152
In response to HoleinOne
If something isn’t done to slow the rise in higher education costs, football programs will begin to die as the overwhelming majority lose millions.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
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Age: 65
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10-21-18 12:34 PM - Post#263155
In response to HuskyColonial
If something isn’t done to slow the rise in higher education costs, football programs will begin to die as the overwhelming majority lose millions.
Now you've gotten to the crux of the issue. Bucknell has run a budget deficit the past two years. Athletics in general, and football in particular, make an easy target to cutting costs. I don't expect any serious effort on the academic side to reduce costs.
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bison75
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-26-06
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11-02-18 09:49 PM - Post#264120
In response to jkrun80
In an article I just saw in USA Today we are listed among the many schools that have had one or two former players diagnosed with CTE. As much as I love football, I would support a decision to drop the sport.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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11-03-18 11:58 AM - Post#264139
In response to BisonRoadWarrior
Just as sweeping the Cowboys helps redeem a lousy Eagles season, I will now pin all my hopes on beating Lehigh.
Lehigh lost 56-0 to Holy Cross last weekend, so there is hope the Bison can pull off a win. They will need to play better than they did against Lafayette. Hopefully, the bye week helped them rest and regroup.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-03-18 01:02 PM - Post#264140
In response to jkrun80
Unfortunately the bye week didn't miraculously heal the many injured players. Many starters have missed many weeks. Bitikofer had a strong game at QB last week and then suffered a serious knee injury at the end. Presumably out for the year. Freshman Tarrin Earle has inherited the starting job.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
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Age: 65
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11-03-18 02:48 PM - Post#264142
In response to Bison137
The defensive lapses are killing us.
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nitlion
Masters Student
Posts: 413
Reg: 06-18-06
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11-03-18 03:01 PM - Post#264143
In response to jkrun80
Freshman QB playing pretty well for first start, no run game, poor tackling and pass defense, obvious by score Lehigh has exploited it, overall not a good game by Bison against a team that everyone else has abused.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-03-18 04:37 PM - Post#264146
In response to nitlion
While the game was still a contest(well into the 3rd qtr) Lehigh was doing their best to give it to us. They turned the ball over, they took dumb penalties, but when they got the ball, they would go 70 yards in 3 or 4 plays. Bucknell’s vaunted defense must have remained in Lewisburg. This team is every bit as good as it’s record.
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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11-03-18 04:51 PM - Post#264147
In response to bison63
Fire Susan now
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JimK_LU72
Freshman
Posts: 41
Loc: Allentown
Reg: 02-03-18
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Bucknell FB
11-03-18 06:02 PM - Post#264149
In response to HuskyColonial
Lehigh hopefully will wait until the end of the year to "retire" Andy Coen. His assistants, however should stand in the unemployment line now. I don't know a thing about coach Susan, but it sounds as though you want him in front of our guys in that line. Is that the general feeling in Lewisburg?
Edited by JimK_LU72 on 11-03-18 06:04 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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Re: Bucknell FB
11-03-18 06:11 PM - Post#264150
In response to JimK_LU72
Lehigh hopefully will wait until the end of the year to "retire" Andy Coen. His assistants, however should stand in the unemployment line now. I don't know a thing about coach Susan, but it sounds as though you want him in front of our guys in that line. Is that the general feeling in Lewisburg?
I will just say that the players would be very sorry to see Coach Susan and much of his staff fired. They are very committed to him and vica versa.
I could be mistaken, but think he has one year left on his contract. It's doubtful Bucknell would want to buy him out, but you never know.
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Doktore K
Masters Student
Posts: 473
Reg: 11-11-09
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Re: Bucknell FB
11-03-18 07:04 PM - Post#264151
In response to jkrun80
There are 2 different lines here. Comparing Lehigh and Bucknell football programs is absolutely apples and oranges.
Based on past successes by LU, no comparison here.
Disappointing season for sure. We punted 9 times today? Is that some sort of record?
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JimK_LU72
Freshman
Posts: 41
Loc: Allentown
Reg: 02-03-18
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11-03-18 07:49 PM - Post#264152
In response to Doktore K
We will all be happy next week when basketball season begins. Best of luck to the Bison in their upcoming and very demanding OOC schedule.
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A Western Bison
Sophomore
Posts: 179
Age: 65
Loc: Albuquerque
Reg: 07-05-12
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11-05-18 01:20 PM - Post#264271
In response to HuskyColonial
These last two seasons have been painful to watch, with no creative response to adversity. There has been a big shift in institutional support for the program with not much to show for it. (Yes, it could be better.) If we're going to do this, there has to be some urgency to right the ship.
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Doktore K
Masters Student
Posts: 473
Reg: 11-11-09
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11-05-18 08:40 PM - Post#264340
In response to A Western Bison
WB— can you clarify? More institutional support in what ways or dollars?
I’m wondering how many other PL schools have redshirt players who take 5 years to graduate. I am in favor of a limited number of redshirted student athletes per year.
Just saw a Division II game this weekend and both teams had over 20% redshirts. Would help with depth! Do we have any running backs to spell or block for Jared Cooper?? What happened to all of the RBs?
I like Cooper a lot but he needs some help and we need better depth and creativity.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-05-18 09:25 PM - Post#264343
In response to Doktore K
I’m wondering how many other PL schools have redshirt players who take 5 years to graduate. I am in favor of a limited number of redshirted student athletes per year.
I like Cooper a lot but he needs some help and we need better depth and creativity.
1. All PL schools except for Bucknell and Georgetown normally have a few "redshirt" players each year. These are players who reportedly had injuries that cost them a season and who are pursuing an academic program where a fifth year is necessary. Over the past 17 years Fordham, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, and Colgate have had over 50 players each in that category, and their administrations have cooperated in making it easy. Bucknell has had zero, and I understand there is a lot of administrative pushback that makes it extremely difficult to bring someone back for a 5th year.
Having 3 or 4 fifth year starters makes a huge difference. For example, Last year's Lehigh team won the PL championship. Their starters included three 5th year players: (a) Center Brandon Short 6-3 280; (b) OL Zach Duffy 6-5 325; and (c) DL Jimmy Mitchell 6-2 275. The first two made 1st team All-PL, and all three were team captains. Think LU wins the title without those three?
Btw, starting Bison TE Marcus Ademilola, who suffered a season-ending injury at the beginning of the year, took the only realistic option and dropped out of school for a semester so that he can return and take his injury "redshirt".
2. Cooper is good for a freshman, but he is 5-7 175 pounds and realistically should be a third down back. That would have been his role, but the two top RB's, Chad Freshnock and Marquis Carter, both suffered serious injuries very early in the season. Freshnock, if healthy, is an All-PL RB - and Carter is not far behind.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-05-18 09:39 PM - Post#264345
In response to A Western Bison
There has been a big shift in institutional support for the program with not much to show for it. (Yes, it could be better.) If we're going to do this, there has to be some urgency to right the ship.
Yes, there has been a shift in support, but Bucknell basically is still at the bottom for PL scholarship schools. Here are the most recent expenditures, much of which is the allocated value of scholarships:
Fordham University $7,060,178
Lafayette College $6,581,062
College of Holy Cross $6,162,749
Colgate University $5,899,143
Bucknell University $5,672,257
Lehigh University $5,301,592
According to these numbers, Lehigh is actually last - but I don't really believe that. In any event, BU has closed the gap from what it was two years earlier:
Fordham University $6,515,087
Lafayette College $5,499,462
Lehigh University $5,286,454
Colgate University $5,273,887
College of Holy Cross $4,775,965
Bucknell University $3,846,012
The gap that year was enough to make competing virtually impossible. It is still way too much, but at least the playing field is a bit less uneven now.
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RichH
Sophomore
Posts: 159
Age: 76
Reg: 01-30-12
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11-10-18 05:33 PM - Post#265154
In response to Bison137
137. A survey. I am trying to see if any or all PL teams are at 60 schollies.Any quesstimate?
Thanks
Rich
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-17-18 11:37 AM - Post#266116
In response to RichH
137. A survey. I am trying to see if any or all PL teams are at 60 schollies.Any quesstimate?
Thanks
Rich
Sorry, no idea about the others. Bucknell's expenditures have been so low before this year that I doubt they were close to 60 before.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-17-18 11:38 AM - Post#266117
In response to Bison137
The start time of the Bison football game today was pushed back to give them more time to clear the field, stands, parking lots, etc. Lewisburg apparently had 9 or more inches of snow. This video shows what the field looked like on Thursday:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqQ8t1HBZla/?utm_so urc...
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jkrun80
Postdoc
Posts: 3305
Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
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11-17-18 01:24 PM - Post#266124
In response to Bison137
Yes, we got 9 inches. Several of the Athletics staff and coaches were out shoveling the stands yesterday.
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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11-17-18 03:33 PM - Post#266127
In response to jkrun80
Colgate giving 8-2 Army all they can handle.
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A Western Bison
Sophomore
Posts: 179
Age: 65
Loc: Albuquerque
Reg: 07-05-12
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11-17-18 04:14 PM - Post#266128
In response to HuskyColonial
The men of the football program contribute to the Bucknell community beyond whatever it is they bring on Saturdays in the autumn. As we come to understand CTE and minds wiser than me settle the question of football's place on-campus, dropping the sport will change things well beyond Christy Matthewson-Memorial Stadium.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-17-18 04:25 PM - Post#266130
In response to A Western Bison
Sadly this season concludes with the Bison literally having run out of RB's. The starter today was a backup safety earlier in the season who was switched to RB out of necessity.
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Doktore K
Masters Student
Posts: 473
Reg: 11-11-09
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11-17-18 07:15 PM - Post#266141
In response to Bison137
Sad season indeed. What happened to Cooper?
How can you literally run out of running backs across 4 classes of players?
We know there were major injuries but this is a glaring lack of depth story. Not much went right this year.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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11-17-18 10:12 PM - Post#266151
In response to Doktore K
We are a one win team. Whenever we played another on win team, we remained a one win team and they became a two win team. ‘Nuf said. The bright side is that a lot of young players players got a lot of game experience. The question is are talented players enough to make this predictable offense go anywhere?
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