TheLine
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10-03-18 01:37 PM - Post#261852
Creating a new thread so discussion moves from Jordan Dingle's.
I took a quick look at Woods' numbers from last year. Was pleasantly surprised.
Regardless, he's a key player on D and that'll earn him heavy minutes. He's the one who covered Towns in the Ivy finals, had similar assignments throughout the year.
I also like that's he's a calm presence on the team. Nothing seems to get him off his game.
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palestra38
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-03-18 01:41 PM - Post#261854
In response to TheLine
I think what happened to him his sophomore year has caused him to mature.
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Cvonvorys
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-03-18 02:25 PM - Post#261860
In response to palestra38
Is there a freshman on this team who would fall into the "Betley phenomenon" category as it relates to PG? In other words, an under-the-radar guy who steps in and exceeds all expectations?
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TheLine
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10-03-18 02:29 PM - Post#261862
In response to Cvonvorys
Maybe Washington but I think it's unlikely he's going to leapfrog Woods, Goodman and Silpe at point.
PF10 would know better.
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palestra38
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-03-18 02:31 PM - Post#261863
In response to Cvonvorys
Well, I think we all believe Jelani Williams was going to be that guy. Unfortunately, two straight ACLs means we have to deal with the returnees. Bryce Washington is a freshman guard but I have not heard that he is ready to play a major role this year---anyone hear differently?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
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10-03-18 02:42 PM - Post#261867
In response to palestra38
I'm responding to Jeff2SF's post on this thread, as Jordan Dingle certainly deserves his own.
I understand your points, but last year we made it through the early season without a "ball in your hands" PG. Foreman assumed that role as the year went by and as he gained confidence. While I agree that Woods has not demonstrated high usage efficiency in the past, neither had Foreman. There may be some data from his Freshman year to suggest that, but we've definitely seen that players have performed differently under Donahue's schemes. Four years later, as an experienced senior, with a much better coach, a team that understands its philosophy, with hard earned maturity, and with a seemingly strong mind, I think he can take that step.
One other point - I wouldn't have called our team last year a high efficiency team overall. Our 3pt FG% wasn't good, our FT% was outright bad, and I suspect our 2pt FG%, TO, steals, and assists were nothing special. Against all of the pre-season disdain, our defense really did improve. Somehow, it was enough.
------------------------- --------
understanding that Antonio has shown personal and athletic development from four years ago...
we have a year and a half of data that shows when he was a high usage, ball-in-his-hands point guard, he was severely below average and if we got that performance again, we'd likely not make the ivy tourney.
we have a year of data that shows when he's a complementary, low-usage off guard, glue guy, he did a great job. Given we don't have an obvious replacement for that sort of necessary position, I'm not sure why we want to "solve" Darnell's loss by creating a hole at the off guard spot.
But Steve knows that, so if he starts him at point, either he's made a lot of strides (awesome!) or he hasn't made any strides but we have no one better (not awesome!). We will not know which one it is for a few games so don't be telling me "Woods starting at 1 necessarily means he must be a much better point guard than he used to be".
It might mean that. It might not.
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PennFan10
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10-03-18 07:51 PM - Post#261879
In response to Penndemonium
I think we will see a heavy dose of Antonio/Silpe/Goodman at PG early. Donahue will give new players and returning players every opportunity to earn minutes and then by mid Nov I expect him to settle on a rotation. Washington and Wang have impressed early but you really never know until they play other people.
I anticipate the starting 5 and first ones off the bench to be:
AJ
Max
Ryan
Antonio
Silpe/Goodman
Off Bench early:
Jarrod
Jackson
Fighting for minutes in the top 8
Wang
Washington
Eddie
Kuba
If Wang comes in and consistently makes 3’s, he has a real shot at meaningful minutes. Basically SD will be looking for the consistent 3 he got from Caleb last year. I have no idea where Tyler Hamilton fits in. He hasn’t played in a game in almost 20 months so no clue if he is in that group or not.
I also think we are going to have a much harder time being a top 100 defense. Not impossible, just a much different profile on this team defensively in my opinion
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palestra38
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10-03-18 09:39 PM - Post#261881
In response to PennFan10
The only possible falloff in defense is Silpe/Goodman vs Foreman. Is that that much of a dropoff? One guy? Woods always played the toughest guy and he is back.
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Streamers
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10-03-18 10:53 PM - Post#261885
In response to palestra38
I agree with so much of what I have read on this topic so far. Woods is sure to be the floor leader of this group whether he brings the ball up or not. He will also draw the tough defensive assignments. If he plays opposite goodman, then the two will likely share the PG role. Silpe showed some real flashes last year and will get his chances when the matchups are favorable. This will allow Woods to play off where he is generally more effective. I also would not be surprised to see Betley at the 2 in some situations with Scott at the 3.
As for the others, maybe we will get a clue at the scrimmage but I’m hearing that Wang has been very impressive at practice so far and he could earn some real minutes and create some really good scoring options off the bench.
As for Tyler, his best shot comes from being the best defensive option if Woods has to sit for some reason. We all know what we have in JD - he plays when he’s hitting his shots. Jarrod needs to cut down on the fouls.
Darnell will be missed, but all in all, I think this team is deeper and more versatile than last year and that bodes well.
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penn nation
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10-04-18 09:20 AM - Post#261898
In response to palestra38
The only possible falloff in defense is Silpe/Goodman vs Foreman. Is that that much of a dropoff? One guy?
Um.....yes. Foreman was a very physical defender. Goodman can be disruptive in other ways, but on the whole given his size he's a defensive liability. Silpe isn't as quick as Foreman or as physical.
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palestra38
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10-04-18 09:56 AM - Post#261903
In response to penn nation
Remember, it was Woods who always played the toughest opposing scorer, even giving up 5 inches. Foreman was not seen as especially quick on defense. He's a guy who did really build up his body but if you saw him last year, so has Silpe (and to the coach's credit, so has almost everyone on the team). I think the big difference is on offense, where neither Silpe or Goodman can do what Foreman did and it probably will be up to Woods to see if he can do it. But last year's team won with defense and I don't think we suffer that much by the loss of one player (Wood being an offensive specialist) on defense.
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PennFan10
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10-04-18 10:55 AM - Post#261910
In response to palestra38
Foreman was Coach Donahue's nominee for Defensive Player of the Year so, at least to the coaches, losing him is a big deal.
The other problem with losing Foreman you also alluded to, as Darnell was a two way player. With Darnell and Woods out there, you had 2 players who could defend either guard position (and Woods could guard the 3 and smaller 4's) but both fit into the offense sufficiently. AJ is obviously a great 2 way player and Betley was a serviceable defender. Caleb was an offensive guru but was at a size where you could hide him a bit on defense. Max is a versatile defender but didn't contribute enough on offense.
So the loss, while replaceable, changes the makeup of how SD uses his rotation. None of the other players stepping in are proven 2 way players so you have to mix and match and we will likely be back to the massive situational substitutions we had 2 years ago. That doesn't make for a very cohesive defensive unit.
Also, a big part of our defensive ranking was built on not turning it over and getting turnovers. We were a national leader in A/TO and a big part of that was Darnell. As J2J already indicated, Antonio doesn't have the greatest stats when he is the primary ball handler.
I am sure we will get it figured out but there isn't an obvious solution today. Bryce Washington is going to be very good on defense guarding the perimeter. If he can become an aggressive scorer, we could have a great piece there. And if Dev Goodman ever decides to play consistent defense he would help on smaller guards.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
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10-04-18 02:33 PM - Post#261943
In response to PennFan10
I liked Goodman's footwork to stay in front of defenders quite a bit. Sometimes he would get a bit lost on the team scheme and I'm not sure if he is a versatile defensive guard off of picks and screens.
Foreman was also a very good rebounder as a guard position. That was perhaps an underrated part of his game. He was not great at taking them off of the rim, but he wound up with a lot of the loose rebounds when our forward blocked out (which they did pretty well). I'm not sure Goodman or Silpe would fill that role.
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Streamers
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10-04-18 03:13 PM - Post#261946
In response to Penndemonium
That's a good point about Goodman's (and Darnell's) rebounding. Devon is really good at it, especially for his size but with this roster it should be easy for others to make up any losses that that department. Woods with his strength is no slouch on the boards either.
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Jeff2sf
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10-04-18 03:30 PM - Post#261950
In response to palestra38
Remember, it was Woods who always played the toughest opposing scorer, even giving up 5 inches.
Is P38 a reader of the Secret? Does he have a visionboard? because it sure seems like he's saying stuff like this just in case, if he puts it out there enough, it'll make it so.
But it's not so. You've had this very argument and lost with SomeGuy and PF10 already. Woods did not get the hardest guard assignments. He did occasionally have to guard good offensive players who were much taller than he. And he's good defensively. But he didn't automatically get the toughest scorer. Foreman did whenever the height wouldn't be too onerous.
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palestra38
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10-04-18 03:34 PM - Post#261953
In response to Jeff2sf
When did I have this argument? We had arguments over how good he was, but this is different. Of course, he didn't play the toughest guard all the time but the vast majority of time, he played the toughest offensive player (non-center) on the opposing team. He is a very good defensive player and in my opinion had much better defensive footwork than Foreman. Neither was really quick enough to play Smith of Columbia, though.
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penn nation
Professor
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10-04-18 03:54 PM - Post#261955
In response to palestra38
Neither was really quick enough to play Smith of Columbia, though.
Well, Goodman did have his career highlight game against the Lions.
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palestra38
Professor
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Reg: 11-21-04
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10-04-18 04:04 PM - Post#261956
In response to penn nation
Yes he did, and we'd love to see much more of that this year.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
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10-04-18 04:27 PM - Post#261961
In response to penn nation
Neither was really quick enough to play Smith of Columbia, though.
Well, Goodman did have his career highlight game against the Lions.
He gave Smith fits with his on-ball pressure. I was surprised as anyone that he had such a good offensive game that night.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-04-18 06:35 PM - Post#261968
In response to Jeff2sf
Remember, it was Woods who always played the toughest opposing scorer, even giving up 5 inches.
Is P38 a reader of the Secret? Does he have a visionboard? because it sure seems like he's saying stuff like this just in case, if he puts it out there enough, it'll make it so.
But it's not so. You've had this very argument and lost with SomeGuy and PF10 already. Woods did not get the hardest guard assignments. He did occasionally have to guard good offensive players who were much taller than he. And he's good defensively. But he didn't automatically get the toughest scorer. Foreman did whenever the height wouldn't be too onerous.
I've got to agree with P38 on this. Besides Penn, there were two Ivy contenders last year (Harvard & Yale) and both team's top scorer presented a potential matchup problem for the Quakers because of their height and athleticism. But it was 6'1" Antonio Woods who drew the assignment of guarding 6'7" Seth Towns & 6'6" Miye Onye, and Antonio was up to the challenge. His defense was a big reason why we won two of three against both schools.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
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10-04-18 07:26 PM - Post#261969
In response to 13otto
Then you disagree with the staff. Good luck bro
http://boards.basketball-u.com/showtopic.php?tid/2...
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SomeGuy
Professor
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10-05-18 12:30 AM - Post#261974
In response to palestra38
Yes, we did have this argument, and I went through a bunch of games where Foreman guarded the toughest scorer. Could he cover Towns? No. And Woods could. But with smaller guards, it was generally Foreman who got the tougher assignment.
Regardless of who was better, the most important point is that last year we had two very good guard defenders. This year we only can be certain of one. I think we’ll feel Foreman’s absence most on the defensive end.
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TheLine
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10-05-18 08:50 AM - Post#261985
In response to SomeGuy
SomeGuy, I agree. Whether Foreman or Woods was a 'better' defender last year was largely irrelevant. And is completely irrelevant this year. The fact is both Forman and Woods were very good defenders. Also Caleb Wood's work on defense is underrated because Foreman and Woods were so good.
Donahue's scheme last year was to have the perimeter defenders fight over picks to prevent open 3's. When the perimeter defender couldn't fight over the pick then it required switching to the player setting the pick. The scheme requires a strength, speed and discipline. I doubt Goodman, Silpe, and Donahue are going to be close to as good running it.
It's possible Coach Donahue will need to tweak his defense to cater to what Goodman, Silpe and Jackson D can do. Goodman is capable of shutting down quick guards, like he did against Mike Smith, but his size will make it more difficult for him to fight through picks. Silpe is good at clogging the passing lanes but his lack of quickness is a liability. Jackson D plays hard but is often physically overmatched.
This is going to be less of an issue moving forward based on the type of player Donahue has been recruiting.
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Streamers
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10-05-18 08:59 AM - Post#261986
In response to TheLine
Boy, reading this really makes me mourn the loss of Jelani this year. I’m a little surprised people think JD is going to get serious PT. Sure, without Wood, SD may look to him for offense off the bench, but only as long as he is draining 3’s. Two misses and he likely sits.
Am I the only one who thinks Betley may see some time at the 2 to create additional options at the 3 like Scott or even Tyler when we need some more D there?
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TheLine
Professor
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Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-05-18 09:06 AM - Post#261988
In response to Streamers
You're not the only one... but unless PF10 hints at it then it's not happening.
I'm intrigued by Scott but then am reminded that I may be basing all my optimism on one big game at Monmouth before he went down with an injury. Small sample size.
It was a heck of a game though.
Edited by TheLine on 10-05-18 09:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-05-18 09:18 AM - Post#261992
In response to TheLine
heck of an Overtime, anyway.
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Streamers
Professor
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Loc: NW Philadelphia
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10-05-18 11:51 AM - Post#262018
In response to palestra38
Around this time last year, there was a lot of positive buzz about Scott. I was a skeptic based on what I saw at the scrimmage, but he was getting PT before he got hurt and there was that Monmouth game.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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10-05-18 12:40 PM - Post#262023
In response to Streamers
SD has been very consistent with his seemingly inconsistent pattern of substitutions and minutes.
When he has 2 way players (defined as players who regularly add value on both offense and defense), those guys play 25+ minutes every game. Last year he had 4. Darnell, AJ, Ryan, Woods. Ryan is barely a 2 way player but he does enough defensively to get there. SD will then split up the rest of the minutes among the various roles. Max and Caleb were the next 2 in the rotation and Dev/Jake to a lesser degree. None of those others earned the 2 way player status with Max coming closest. Every other player's participation was episodic and based on matchups, e.g. Goodman @Columbia.
This year I think he has 3 certain 2 way players (AJ, Woods, Ryan) and there is a chance Max becomes a 4th. That leaves room for situational subs for the other minutes between 3-5 others. It doesn't mean someone won't rise up and become the 2 way player SD covets and they end up with 5 but it's not yet apparent that is the case.
There are a few guys that could fit that mold but I don't think any of them put in the work in the offseason to make that move. Potentially one of the freshman could evolve as the season progresses.
I think SD thinks about players who can score and he first wants to know "who can they guard". Last year he played the 5 best defenders on the team. As the season wore on he added Caleb in place of Max to get more offensive punch. That's why I think the profile of this team is so different. Yes, we only lost Darnell, but had huge value because he was a 2 way player and there is no obvious heir. So SD needs 2 players to take those minutes and that usually means a worse defensive profile.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
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10-05-18 02:03 PM - Post#262031
In response to PennFan10
I would love to see Scott and Washington develop into the type of wing defenders who could make life difficult for opponents like Towns and Cambridge.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-05-18 02:29 PM - Post#262037
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Don't know about Washington yet, but extremely doubtful that Scott could effective d-up either of those guys.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
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10-05-18 07:28 PM - Post#262061
In response to palestra38
Don't know about Washington yet, but extremely doubtful that Scott could effective d-up either of those guys.
And what is the basis of this?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-05-18 07:57 PM - Post#262063
In response to Cvonvorys
Because on observation, both are much quicker than he is.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4471
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
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10-06-18 05:48 PM - Post#262078
In response to palestra38
Seriously... Your observation?? Fortunately SD does not coach based on your observations...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-07-18 08:42 AM - Post#262082
In response to Cvonvorys
Why don't you limit being an a-hole to the OTB. IF you have a point to make, make it. If you disagree, fine, but bring something. I posted what clearly was an opinion---Scott cannot guard Towns or Cambridge. Otherwise leave out the gratuitous insults here.
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SomeGuy
Professor
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10-07-18 09:52 AM - Post#262086
In response to Cvonvorys
Come on — we should be encouraging P38 to focus on the defensive end. And in this case, he’s right. I think it is unlikely that Scott is the guy to guard either of those players. He’s definitely not the match for Cambridge.
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penn nation
Professor
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Reg: 12-02-04
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10-07-18 10:36 AM - Post#262089
In response to SomeGuy
I think it is unlikely that Scott is the guy to guard either of those players. He’s definitely not the match for Cambridge.
To be fair, that's going to be a challenge for anyone. Williams might have been a contender here...maybe if he can recover (again) he can fill this role next year.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
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10-07-18 02:34 PM - Post#262094
In response to penn nation
There is no way to assess if Eddie is capable of matching up with Cambridge or Towns, he hasn’t been on the floor enough to know if that is in his skill set. He can dunk and run and rebound. Not sure what else he can do based on very limited experience. Washington appears to be a mix between Goodman and Eddie, which I view as a good thing. I’m sure he will get his chance to show if he is ready early this season.
I hope they both are lock down defenders who can fit into the offensive scheme. I hope.....
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pennsive
Junior
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Reg: 11-21-04
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10-08-18 12:28 PM - Post#262152
In response to PennFan10
Just back from an African Safari trip, so I am weighing in a bit late on this. Our problem this year is to replace Foreman's swag(I won't let us be intimidated or defeated) and work ethic to back it up, and the loss of our three point shooting (Wood and Jones). Dingle is still a year away, but he seems to combine those qualities. This year, let's hope it is Washington because the others, in the past, have not shown that they are multi-dimensional.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3050
Reg: 10-20-14
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10-17-18 10:45 PM - Post#262916
In response to pennsive
https://www.thedp.com/article/2018/10/penn- mens-wo...
- “We do run a pretty complex system with very few set plays, and it’s more about making reads off of what the defense is giving you,†Brodeur said. “A lot of the times, [when] we play live it’s a good indicator of who is getting it and who needs to work on it a little bit.â€
This is especially important as Penn tries to fill the void in the starting lineup left by the graduation of guard Darnell Foreman. Freshman newcomer Bryce Washington appears to be a strong candidate to step up, as he has impressed so far in preseason practice.
“He’s definitely in the running for the starting spot,†Donahue said. “He’s played really well. He’s competed on both sides of the ball. He’s a very good stand still shooter. He’s definitely someone who I think can help us.†-
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-18-18 09:03 AM - Post#262929
In response to rbg
It would warm the cockles of my heart to see a freshman in the starting lineup.
(BTW-- a question for all the medical professionals on this board. Where, specifically, within the structure of the heart are the cockles, and what function do they serve?)
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8220
Loc: NW Philadelphia
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10-18-18 10:30 AM - Post#262950
In response to Silver Maple
I would be more than impressed if I saw a true freshman as SD's starting PG - this would also tell me something about his feelings concerning Silpe and Goodman.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
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Loc: Our Nation's Capital
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-18-18 10:45 AM - Post#262951
In response to Silver Maple
(BTW-- a question for all the medical professionals on this board. Where, specifically, within the structure of the heart are the cockles...)
Right next to the mussels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNdU6bGE5E
Edited by T.P.F.K.A.D.W. on 10-18-18 10:46 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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