TheLine
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10-03-18 01:37 PM - Post#261852
Creating a new thread so discussion moves from Jordan Dingle's.
I took a quick look at Woods' numbers from last year. Was pleasantly surprised.
Regardless, he's a key player on D and that'll earn him heavy minutes. He's the one who covered Towns in the Ivy finals, had similar assignments throughout the year.
I also like that's he's a calm presence on the team. Nothing seems to get him off his game.
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palestra38
Professor
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-03-18 01:41 PM - Post#261854
In response to TheLine
I think what happened to him his sophomore year has caused him to mature.
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Cvonvorys
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-03-18 02:25 PM - Post#261860
In response to palestra38
Is there a freshman on this team who would fall into the "Betley phenomenon" category as it relates to PG? In other words, an under-the-radar guy who steps in and exceeds all expectations?
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TheLine
Professor
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10-03-18 02:29 PM - Post#261862
In response to Cvonvorys
Maybe Washington but I think it's unlikely he's going to leapfrog Woods, Goodman and Silpe at point.
PF10 would know better.
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palestra38
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Re: Who will be Point this year? Let the debate begin!
10-03-18 02:31 PM - Post#261863
In response to Cvonvorys
Well, I think we all believe Jelani Williams was going to be that guy. Unfortunately, two straight ACLs means we have to deal with the returnees. Bryce Washington is a freshman guard but I have not heard that he is ready to play a major role this year---anyone hear differently?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
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Reg: 11-29-04
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10-03-18 02:42 PM - Post#261867
In response to palestra38
I'm responding to Jeff2SF's post on this thread, as Jordan Dingle certainly deserves his own.
I understand your points, but last year we made it through the early season without a "ball in your hands" PG. Foreman assumed that role as the year went by and as he gained confidence. While I agree that Woods has not demonstrated high usage efficiency in the past, neither had Foreman. There may be some data from his Freshman year to suggest that, but we've definitely seen that players have performed differently under Donahue's schemes. Four years later, as an experienced senior, with a much better coach, a team that understands its philosophy, with hard earned maturity, and with a seemingly strong mind, I think he can take that step.
One other point - I wouldn't have called our team last year a high efficiency team overall. Our 3pt FG% wasn't good, our FT% was outright bad, and I suspect our 2pt FG%, TO, steals, and assists were nothing special. Against all of the pre-season disdain, our defense really did improve. Somehow, it was enough.
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understanding that Antonio has shown personal and athletic development from four years ago...
we have a year and a half of data that shows when he was a high usage, ball-in-his-hands point guard, he was severely below average and if we got that performance again, we'd likely not make the ivy tourney.
we have a year of data that shows when he's a complementary, low-usage off guard, glue guy, he did a great job. Given we don't have an obvious replacement for that sort of necessary position, I'm not sure why we want to "solve" Darnell's loss by creating a hole at the off guard spot.
But Steve knows that, so if he starts him at point, either he's made a lot of strides (awesome!) or he hasn't made any strides but we have no one better (not awesome!). We will not know which one it is for a few games so don't be telling me "Woods starting at 1 necessarily means he must be a much better point guard than he used to be".
It might mean that. It might not.
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PennFan10
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10-03-18 07:51 PM - Post#261879
In response to Penndemonium
I think we will see a heavy dose of Antonio/Silpe/Goodman at PG early. Donahue will give new players and returning players every opportunity to earn minutes and then by mid Nov I expect him to settle on a rotation. Washington and Wang have impressed early but you really never know until they play other people.
I anticipate the starting 5 and first ones off the bench to be:
AJ
Max
Ryan
Antonio
Silpe/Goodman
Off Bench early:
Jarrod
Jackson
Fighting for minutes in the top 8
Wang
Washington
Eddie
Kuba
If Wang comes in and consistently makes 3’s, he has a real shot at meaningful minutes. Basically SD will be looking for the consistent 3 he got from Caleb last year. I have no idea where Tyler Hamilton fits in. He hasn’t played in a game in almost 20 months so no clue if he is in that group or not.
I also think we are going to have a much harder time being a top 100 defense. Not impossible, just a much different profile on this team defensively in my opinion
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palestra38
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10-03-18 09:39 PM - Post#261881
In response to PennFan10
The only possible falloff in defense is Silpe/Goodman vs Foreman. Is that that much of a dropoff? One guy? Woods always played the toughest guy and he is back.
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Streamers
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10-03-18 10:53 PM - Post#261885
In response to palestra38
I agree with so much of what I have read on this topic so far. Woods is sure to be the floor leader of this group whether he brings the ball up or not. He will also draw the tough defensive assignments. If he plays opposite goodman, then the two will likely share the PG role. Silpe showed some real flashes last year and will get his chances when the matchups are favorable. This will allow Woods to play off where he is generally more effective. I also would not be surprised to see Betley at the 2 in some situations with Scott at the 3.
As for the others, maybe we will get a clue at the scrimmage but I’m hearing that Wang has been very impressive at practice so far and he could earn some real minutes and create some really good scoring options off the bench.
As for Tyler, his best shot comes from being the best defensive option if Woods has to sit for some reason. We all know what we have in JD - he plays when he’s hitting his shots. Jarrod needs to cut down on the fouls.
Darnell will be missed, but all in all, I think this team is deeper and more versatile than last year and that bodes well.
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penn nation
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10-04-18 09:20 AM - Post#261898
In response to palestra38
The only possible falloff in defense is Silpe/Goodman vs Foreman. Is that that much of a dropoff? One guy?
Um.....yes. Foreman was a very physical defender. Goodman can be disruptive in other ways, but on the whole given his size he's a defensive liability. Silpe isn't as quick as Foreman or as physical.
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palestra38
Professor
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10-04-18 09:56 AM - Post#261903
In response to penn nation
Remember, it was Woods who always played the toughest opposing scorer, even giving up 5 inches. Foreman was not seen as especially quick on defense. He's a guy who did really build up his body but if you saw him last year, so has Silpe (and to the coach's credit, so has almost everyone on the team). I think the big difference is on offense, where neither Silpe or Goodman can do what Foreman did and it probably will be up to Woods to see if he can do it. But last year's team won with defense and I don't think we suffer that much by the loss of one player (Wood being an offensive specialist) on defense.
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PennFan10
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10-04-18 10:55 AM - Post#261910
In response to palestra38
Foreman was Coach Donahue's nominee for Defensive Player of the Year so, at least to the coaches, losing him is a big deal.
The other problem with losing Foreman you also alluded to, as Darnell was a two way player. With Darnell and Woods out there, you had 2 players who could defend either guard position (and Woods could guard the 3 and smaller 4's) but both fit into the offense sufficiently. AJ is obviously a great 2 way player and Betley was a serviceable defender. Caleb was an offensive guru but was at a size where you could hide him a bit on defense. Max is a versatile defender but didn't contribute enough on offense.
So the loss, while replaceable, changes the makeup of how SD uses his rotation. None of the other players stepping in are proven 2 way players so you have to mix and match and we will likely be back to the massive situational substitutions we had 2 years ago. That doesn't make for a very cohesive defensive unit.
Also, a big part of our defensive ranking was built on not turning it over and getting turnovers. We were a national leader in A/TO and a big part of that was Darnell. As J2J already indicated, Antonio doesn't have the greatest stats when he is the primary ball handler.
I am sure we will get it figured out but there isn't an obvious solution today. Bryce Washington is going to be very good on defense guarding the perimeter. If he can become an aggressive scorer, we could have a great piece there. And if Dev Goodman ever decides to play consistent defense he would help on smaller guards.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
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10-04-18 02:33 PM - Post#261943
In response to PennFan10
I liked Goodman's footwork to stay in front of defenders quite a bit. Sometimes he would get a bit lost on the team scheme and I'm not sure if he is a versatile defensive guard off of picks and screens.
Foreman was also a very good rebounder as a guard position. That was perhaps an underrated part of his game. He was not great at taking them off of the rim, but he wound up with a lot of the loose rebounds when our forward blocked out (which they did pretty well). I'm not sure Goodman or Silpe would fill that role.
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Streamers
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10-04-18 03:13 PM - Post#261946
In response to Penndemonium
That's a good point about Goodman's (and Darnell's) rebounding. Devon is really good at it, especially for his size but with this roster it should be easy for others to make up any losses that that department. Woods with his strength is no slouch on the boards either.
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Jeff2sf
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10-04-18 03:30 PM - Post#261950
In response to palestra38
Remember, it was Woods who always played the toughest opposing scorer, even giving up 5 inches.
Is P38 a reader of the Secret? Does he have a visionboard? because it sure seems like he's saying stuff like this just in case, if he puts it out there enough, it'll make it so.
But it's not so. You've had this very argument and lost with SomeGuy and PF10 already. Woods did not get the hardest guard assignments. He did occasionally have to guard good offensive players who were much taller than he. And he's good defensively. But he didn't automatically get the toughest scorer. Foreman did whenever the height wouldn't be too onerous.
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palestra38
Professor
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10-04-18 03:34 PM - Post#261953
In response to Jeff2sf
When did I have this argument? We had arguments over how good he was, but this is different. Of course, he didn't play the toughest guard all the time but the vast majority of time, he played the toughest offensive player (non-center) on the opposing team. He is a very good defensive player and in my opinion had much better defensive footwork than Foreman. Neither was really quick enough to play Smith of Columbia, though.
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penn nation
Professor
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10-04-18 03:54 PM - Post#261955
In response to palestra38
Neither was really quick enough to play Smith of Columbia, though.
Well, Goodman did have his career highlight game against the Lions.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-04-18 04:04 PM - Post#261956
In response to penn nation
Yes he did, and we'd love to see much more of that this year.
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weinhauers_ghost
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10-04-18 04:27 PM - Post#261961
In response to penn nation
Neither was really quick enough to play Smith of Columbia, though.
Well, Goodman did have his career highlight game against the Lions.
He gave Smith fits with his on-ball pressure. I was surprised as anyone that he had such a good offensive game that night.
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13otto
Masters Student
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Reg: 11-22-04
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10-04-18 06:35 PM - Post#261968
In response to Jeff2sf
Remember, it was Woods who always played the toughest opposing scorer, even giving up 5 inches.
Is P38 a reader of the Secret? Does he have a visionboard? because it sure seems like he's saying stuff like this just in case, if he puts it out there enough, it'll make it so.
But it's not so. You've had this very argument and lost with SomeGuy and PF10 already. Woods did not get the hardest guard assignments. He did occasionally have to guard good offensive players who were much taller than he. And he's good defensively. But he didn't automatically get the toughest scorer. Foreman did whenever the height wouldn't be too onerous.
I've got to agree with P38 on this. Besides Penn, there were two Ivy contenders last year (Harvard & Yale) and both team's top scorer presented a potential matchup problem for the Quakers because of their height and athleticism. But it was 6'1" Antonio Woods who drew the assignment of guarding 6'7" Seth Towns & 6'6" Miye Onye, and Antonio was up to the challenge. His defense was a big reason why we won two of three against both schools.
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