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Username Post: MMM All-Ivy preview        (Topic#21935)
Bruno 
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10-13-18 11:02 AM - Post#262509    

https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/10/11/1796406...

Dez apparently just squeaking onto the 2nd team. And no mention of Anderson. Upperclassman bias aside, that’s either great news for the league or too little regard for Brown’s guards.

Not sure which to root for.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
PennFan10 
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10-13-18 11:42 AM - Post#262510    
    In response to Bruno

Too little regard for Brown's guards? Really? Ok, forget the potential newcomers, you get to pick 2, ok 3 from this list:

Bryce Aiken
Miye Oni
Matt Morgan
Ryan Betley
Devin Cannaday
Dez Cambridge
Mike Smith

This is a talented league at the guard position. Good luck.




 
Bruno 
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10-13-18 10:06 PM - Post#262520    
    In response to PennFan10

So you’re going with the latter? That’s fine. It is good news for the league.

But I think Cambridge is a first teamer. Even as a soph.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1995

Reg: 02-15-15
10-13-18 11:12 PM - Post#262522    
    In response to Bruno

I picked a mix really. Anderson isn't good enough to be on this list and Cambridge has a chance to be a 1st teamer.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-22-04
10-13-18 11:40 PM - Post#262525    
    In response to Bruno

Well, who on the MMM list do you put him ahead of, and why?

 
Bruno 
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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10-14-18 07:05 AM - Post#262531    
    In response to SomeGuy

I put him in front of everyone but Morgan. Nobody else can dominate a game offensively and defensively like Cambridge can - and did. Fabulous players on this list. But Cambridge is another level.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
SomeGuy 
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10-14-18 08:00 AM - Post#262533    
    In response to Bruno

I guess this is where my bias toward the winning players comes in — because I actually think Morgan is the weakest player on the list. I also think you underestimate the ability of some of the other guys to dominate a game. How can you watch the two Brown games with Harvard last year and think Cambridge dominates a game more than Towns? You guys lost both games, Towns averaged 27 ppg against you, shot about 50% from the floor, and was the game high scorer both games. Cambridge scored a comparatively pedestrian 16 ppg while shooting 33%. Towns dominated those games. Cambridge did not.

 
AntiUngvar 
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10-14-18 09:14 PM - Post#262559    
    In response to SomeGuy

SomeGuy:
I know you're prone to take the road less traveled. I know you're capable of disagreeing with yourself in the midst of pecking a three letter word. But you didn't really watch 2 Brown v. Harvard games last year- don't think they could even pay Tommy Amaker enough money to spend his time that way!


 
Bruno 
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10-14-18 09:40 PM - Post#262562    
    In response to SomeGuy

Nobody but you is comparing Cambridge with Towns. Cambridge a 6’4 guard and Towns a 6’7 F. I think we’ve been talking the guard spots all along.

But since you brought it up, Cambridge was playing hurt in the second Harvard game. In the first one he had 22 and Harvard won on FTs in the final minute. In the second one Brown lost by single digits. Towns was awesome in both. But otherwise not sure the purpose of this comparison.

It’s hard to compare all the guards apples to apples given different roles. But I think there’s a reason Matt Morgan was a top 10 in the nation scorer, has some NBA interest, all despite being 6’2.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
SomeGuy 
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10-14-18 10:29 PM - Post#262565    
    In response to Bruno

I guess I misunderstood you. You posted the mid major first team list and then said Cambridge should be there. I asked who from the list you would replace — the list was Towns, Brodeur, Oni, Lewis, and Morgan. You said Morgan was he only guy you would put ahead of Cambridge. So I took that to mean Cambridge ahead of all the guys on the list. I guess you just meant guard? But if Morgan is the only guard on the list, and you would put him ahead of Cambridge, who does Cambridge replace?

 
PennFan10 
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Reg: 02-15-15
10-15-18 07:04 AM - Post#262568    
    In response to SomeGuy

Hmmm. My Sherlock Holmes brain tells me he thinks dez over Oni

 
rbg 
PhD Student
Posts: 1053

Reg: 10-20-14
10-15-18 08:15 AM - Post#262586    
    In response to PennFan10

A very good list of talented guards in the IL
Brown - Cambridge, Anderson
Columbia - Smith
Cornell - Morgan
Dartmouth - Barry
Harvard - Aiken, Juzang, Bassey
Penn - Betley
Princeton - Stephens, Cannady
Yale - Oni

Add to that, a group of highly rated rookies at Columbia (Ellis), Dartmouth (Samuels), Harvard (Kirkwood, Freedman), Penn (Washington), Princeton (Llewellyn), and Yale (Cotton). Several on this list should get a chance to play serious minutes this year.

(My apologies that I don't know much about the Brown newcomers or the potential for sophomore George Mawanda-Kalema who played in only 1 game last season. With Cambridge, Anderson and Hunsaker getting over 30 minutes each, I don't know if any of the other guards will get much play, though.)

With no disrespect to a very talented player, it might be difficult for Cambridge to crack into the top 2. However, if he can lead the Bears into the Ivy Tournament, it might be hard to keep him off the first team.

 
palestra38 
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10-15-18 08:27 AM - Post#262587    
    In response to rbg

I think Cambridge is the most dynamic offensive player on that list. He may be the best overall. Doesn't mean he'll be first team as a soph.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
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Loc: New Jersey
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MMM All-Ivy preview
10-15-18 10:13 AM - Post#262599    
    In response to palestra38

Remember, last year's graduates and this year's senior class are relatively weaker. There are now three strong recruiting classes which are going to make the competition for individual awards very tough. Of course, circumstances affect things as well. For instance, Aiken was first team as a frosh, but his injury allowed Juzang and Bassey to flourish. The injury to Towns put Bassey in the spotlight in the NIT where he looked awesome (19 pts, 12 rbs, 5 assists) against a good Marquette team. Bassey plays offense as a guard but as Harvard's best defender often ends up guarding the opponent's best player.

A lot of this will be determined by unpredictable circumstances beyond anyone's control. Also, there are some GREAT freshman guards who will absolutely see time (Llewellyn) or who may fight there way into relevance (Kirkwood).

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 10-15-18 10:15 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
AntiUngvar 
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Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-15-18 03:31 PM - Post#262653    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Dad: What makes you so high on Liewelyn?
And what do you think of the comment in the mid major piece, that "there are just so many Harvard players we can acknowledge?" WHY NOT SIMPLY LIST THOSE YOU SEE AS MOST DESERVING, WITHOUT TOSSING A (NON) OBLIGATORY BONE TO EACH OF THE ANCIENT EIGHT MEMBER SCHOOLS??


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
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10-15-18 07:28 PM - Post#262662    
    In response to AntiUngvar

In the case of Llewellyn, I'm trusting the rating services, seemingly confirmed by Mike James. More importantly, he had 19 offers, most of them power 5 (Virginia, Ohio State, Clemson, Florida, Purdue, Wake Forest, Tennessee, Stanford, etc.). Last Ivy resume like that belonged to Seth Towns.

As for your second point, we seem to be in agreement. There are a lot of variables related to an individual's recognition, including those endemic to the fact that there's only one basketball. Don't know whether Llewellyn will end up being decisively better than Kirkwood, but Princeton needs a starting guard this year whereas Harvard does not. All-Ivy should rightfully recognize performance. The most skilled player may not perform (or be provided the opportunity to perform).



 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1995

Reg: 02-15-15
MMM All-Ivy preview
10-15-18 11:10 PM - Post#262669    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

There’s at least a decent chance that the best newcomer in the league this year isn’t named Kirkwood or Llewellyn.

Edited by PennFan10 on 10-15-18 11:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bruno 
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 05:56 AM - Post#262670    
    In response to PennFan10

I dunno. Have you see the Llewelyn highlight films? He looks like he is very good at basketball. (Not being sarcastic. Looks like a stud.)
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
AntiUngvar 
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Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 08:44 AM - Post#262678    
    In response to Bruno

His dad, who beat UCLA in the dance 20 plus years ago, may have been the true stud!


 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
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Loc: New Jersey
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Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 09:04 AM - Post#262679    
    In response to Bruno

Went back to read up on Jaelin Llewellyn and found only glowing reports, even one that expect him to enter the draft after his freshman season!

You apparently have a frosh other than Llewellyn and Kirkwood in mind. Who else do you think is in the running for ROY?

 
Bruno 
PhD Student
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 10:48 AM - Post#262703    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I don't. I admit I don't know as much about the full recruiting class but it's hard to imagine any Ivy freshman more talented than this kid looks. Then again as the OB says, you never know what you really have until you see them against bigger and faster competition.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1995

Reg: 02-15-15
10-16-18 10:52 AM - Post#262706    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Jordan Bruner was widely considered the favorite. I remember last year many thought Sebastian Much was the leading candidate. I don’t think Dez Cambridge was on many people’s radar a year ago. Miye Oni came from relative obscurity. The point is there is a lot of talent coming into our league and while Lewellyn or Kirkwood are the hyped favorites, I’ll take the field against those two.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-22-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 10:54 AM - Post#262707    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Llewelyn’s Dad? I don’t recall either of his teams beating UCLA. Or have I lost the thread again?

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20037

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 11:04 AM - Post#262709    
    In response to SomeGuy

Who cares who wins ROY? Question is whether Princeton can overcome the serious deficiencies that were revealed last year when Cook, Weisz, Miller, Caruso and Brase all were graduated, leaving the Tigers with no quality experienced frontcourt players. You don't go from 23-7 to 13-16, graduate another 4 year starter in Bell and expect to suddenly be at the top because of one freshman. And if they don't, they lose Cannady and Stephens after this year. I think the issue is whether they or Brown finishes 4th---right now, I like Brown for that spot.

 
SomeGuy 
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10-16-18 11:04 AM - Post#262710    
    In response to PennFan10

Always reasonable to take the field (though I note that there were some who picked Oni, who like Much and Llewelyn had a likelier path to start that Bruner did).

Llewelyn is the pick here, though, if you have to pick one. He is arguably more highly touted than anyone the league has gotten, and he has a clear path to a starting role if he is ready. Much/Desrosiers show why this isn’t an exact science though — they were highly regarded and had every opportunity to step in immediately, but the mix suffered mightily without Cook and Weisz. Llewelyn’s fit to the spot needed seems more clear, but who knows — maybe he needs to wait for Cannady to graduate to start.

 
mrjames 
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10-16-18 11:32 AM - Post#262719    
    In response to SomeGuy

Might as well throw Taurus Samuels out there as my pick for Ivy ROY, because ROY is, indeed, about talent plus opportunity. Mike Wang would be another strong choice (big senior year answered a lot of questions).

That being said, it's important to note that Noah and Jaelin are a different caliber of recruit - one that had been more intensely scrutinized and from a group that has a very high likelihood to hit. This wasn't a case of a projectable big man who got early high ratings based on size alone, or a formerly highly-regarded player that had a terrible spring/summer and watched high major offers evaporate. These are two recruits that had active, high-major offers and who stunned folks by picking Harvard and Princeton.

Jaelin is the most highly regarded recruit to pick the Ivy League in my time covering the league, and that's including the 2016 Harvard class. He's not going to help the fact that Princeton's problems last year were more defensive than offensive, though, but he's an absurd talent.

 
T.P.F.K.A.D.W. 
Masters Student
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Loc: Our Nation's Capital
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Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 01:02 PM - Post#262730    
    In response to AntiUngvar

  • AntiUngvar Said:
His dad, who beat UCLA in the dance 20 plus years ago, may have been the true stud!


Are you referring to Gabe Lewullis? Pretty sure he's not Jaelin Llewellyn's dad.

 
SomeGuy 
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Reg: 11-22-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 01:02 PM - Post#262731    
    In response to palestra38

On Princeton vs. Brown and 4th place, I’ll take Princeton. They were clearly the fourth best team statistically, which suggests a little bad luck. The closest team of the other four was Columbia, and losing Meisner means they shouldn’t bridge the gap. With Llewelyn, Stephens and Cannady, plus some guys who could emerge, they seem most likely of the non playoff teams from last year to step up. I agree with you, though, that they need to prove it one the court — they were a long way from the top three during the Ivy season last year, and they lost an important player on a team that didn’t have enough last year to begin with.

On Brown, while they showed offensive flashes, they were literally four final possessions of 0-14 last year. It takes some guts to convert those, they aren’t going anywhere if they can’t play more complete games. They are clearly better than Dartmouth, and Cornell and Columbia each lost key bigs. Browns most likely path to 4th will be if this is another year where a losing record makes the tournament.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20037

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 01:08 PM - Post#262732    
    In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.

OUCH!

 
palestra38 
Professor
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Reg: 11-21-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 01:11 PM - Post#262734    
    In response to SomeGuy

I think what is particularly troubling about Princeton is that they won only 1 league game on the road, which means they needed that bad lighting and backdrop to win games (it's not as though they drew many fans last year--it was Penn fans and crickets in there for the Penn-Princeton game at Jadwin).

I just think Princeton is much further away than do you. Relying on a freshman has never been the key to winning in the Ivies.

 
SomeGuy 
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Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 01:29 PM - Post#262739    
    In response to palestra38

Shouldn’t that same logic apply to Brown? They won one road game (in OT). Why is this a fatal flaw for Princeton but not for Brown?

 
palestra38 
Professor
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Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 01:45 PM - Post#262740    
    In response to SomeGuy

Brown was a very young team and didn't lose a game on the road by more than 7. Lots of close losses---I expect more improvement.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
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10-16-18 01:56 PM - Post#262741    
    In response to SomeGuy

Brown has everyone returning, which should mean a lot in a high tempo offense. I do like Princeton when Aririzugoh is on the floor. He's the first real big they've had in years. Gladson gives them depth - although Henderson may use them the other way around depending on the opponent. Stephens (former DOY) and Aririzugoh are a tough inside pair. Nevertheless, I saw Princeton's defense as its achilles heel last year with Cannady, Much and Desrosiers. That is where Bell will be missed. I bet Much and Desrosiers will be focusing on improving that part of their games.

Brown is still lightning in a bottle. When Cambridge gets hot - watch out!

Probably Princeton's spot unless it implodes as it did last year.

By the way, I think I saw that Harvard is 2nd or 3rd in the country in returning minutes (or was it scoring or possessions?). I think this stat is meaningful as Ivy players tend to not be as ready as freshmen, but the better ones really improve with seniority. Harvard is theoretically over 100% if a healthy Aiken is factored in on top of Juzang. Looking at pre-season photos, it looks like guys like Aiken and Towns are maturing physically.

Anyway, clearly the league pundits place Penn over Yale, whereas most national publications had it the other way around. If they are all correct, the deciding moment could be at Payne Whitney on March 16th at 3:00pm when the presumed 2nd and 3rd seeded teams face off. Will HCA decide things?



 
palestra38 
Professor
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10-16-18 01:58 PM - Post#262742    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

You know what they say about counting them chickens.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-22-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 02:00 PM - Post#262743    
    In response to palestra38

I will (perhaps unfairly) pick on the word “more” for a moment. Brown didn’t improve at all from two years ago to last year. They’ve been remarkably consistent, finishing between 265 and 280 in pomeroy each of the last four years and always winning 3-4 league games. They actually got considerably worse offensively, though they did improve enough on defense to make up for it (that said, they were still better on offense than defense, though now below average at both).

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 20037

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 02:07 PM - Post#262745    
    In response to SomeGuy

You're right that they haven't won yet. But Cambridge in my opinion is the second best player in the league and he only was a freshman, and the other two underclassmen were pretty good as well. They are tougher and stronger than what I saw out of the Princeton guys coming back from last year (Bell was really tough--he will be missed despite being inconsistent as a shooter). They are headed to being a very different team than the great team of 2 years ago--I don't see them as serious threats this year.

 
PennFan10 
PhD Student
Posts: 1995

Reg: 02-15-15
10-16-18 02:55 PM - Post#262752    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I’ll be eagerly watching the Harvard v Yale game on March 16.

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
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Reg: 07-23-18
Re: MMM All-Ivy preview
10-16-18 03:49 PM - Post#262760    
    In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.

Thanks for the needed correction. I'm sorry, but most Princeton athletes look alike to me. They did beat the Bruins in '96 with that fellow Gabe- no apparent relation to this present day player. Thanks again!


 
rbg 
PhD Student
Posts: 1053

Reg: 10-20-14
10-16-18 03:55 PM - Post#262761    
    In response to PennFan10

Back in the 2016-2017 season, I believe after the loss at Princeton, I seem to remember Steve Donahue saying that his team was improving, but they were just not mentally strong enough to close out games against better teams. When they could get that last part in order, things would turn around. The results over the last part of that season and last year showed he was correct.

I don't know if that is something the players need to do for themselves, or if it is something that the staff needs to assist.

If the Bears can actually take this next step, they could be trouble during the season and a four team tournament.

 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-22-04
10-16-18 07:32 PM - Post#262764    
    In response to rbg

The thing with Brown is that they won more than their share of close games in conference. If they got down to the end, they were pretty good. The problem was getting there. Again, they were tied or down inside 6 seconds left in all 14 league games and managed to pull out 4 of them. That is actually kind of hard to do. The problem for Brown is a lack of stretches where they dominate play. At their best, they seem to just be keeping up, even against weak competition. That is a solvable problem, too, and could come with time, but I actually think it is a little more fundamental and harder to address than just learning how to close out games. In the league, they literally never had a late lead to close out, in 14 games.

 
Bruno 
PhD Student
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
10-16-18 07:37 PM - Post#262765    
    In response to rbg

Brown has a puncher’s chance against any of the top four on a given night. If they can get to the tournament, they can be the team you don’t want to play. As a very young team they kept most games close, and another year of maturity will hopefully help win more of those.

This feels like a year where 6-8 could get you in.
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
SomeGuy 
Postdoc
Posts: 4712

Reg: 11-22-04
10-16-18 08:21 PM - Post#262766    
    In response to Bruno

Agreed. That’s why the question of what Princeton is matters a lot — if they jump back to being good, we could see a pretty clear top four. If not, though, seems like another year where everyone is in it the final weekend.



 
SRP 
Postdoc
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10-17-18 08:09 PM - Post#262912    
    In response to SomeGuy

Last year's Princeton team played inconsistent--which means bad--defense and choked offensively at the end in a slew of close games. The frontcourt freshman getting PT weren't able to hold up defensively, Gladson was limited by his injury, and Henderson seemed unwilling to leave Aririguzoh in there (although some of that was foul trouble). Much seemed to be nicked up toward the end of the season as well.

I expect Much and Derosier to be tougher and smarter this year on D, Gladson to get more minutes, and maybe Aririguzoh to shoot enough and foul less. I also expect Stephens to be told that with Llewelyn out there he should focus more on D and less on having to create scoring opportunities for himself.

I wish I were confident that we'd see more ball pressure, because these guys do better that way in man or zone, but after tearing out my hair last season I'm not sure Henderson is going to let it grow back.



 
Bruno 
PhD Student
Posts: 1016

Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
10-18-18 04:41 AM - Post#262918    
    In response to SRP

Pretty rare for Princeton to not be an effective defensive tetam? Or am I just channeling 1998?
LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh)


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3384

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
10-18-18 08:00 AM - Post#262928    
    In response to Bruno

It was all very weird with Princeton last year. I didn't think they were going to be as good as many of the predictions or the previous year, but I didn't expect them to be quite so inept, and not in the ways that they were. Perhaps they just had a shpilkis in their genechtagazoink. This season will tell us if that was an aberration or something deeper.

 
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