AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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11-18-18 07:01 PM - Post#266252
Fairly interesting game so far! To me, Eagles seems to allow the opponent to always determine the pace of the game; but Fordham's more deliberate style (as compared to the play of Youngstown State and Florida International) seems to be a better fit for the Lions, at least so far: at halftime Columbia leads, 34-33. CU's actually accumulated a huge rebounding advantage over the home team 21-11; and despite the CU starters contributing only 7 points (Mike Smith has 2 points on 1 of 9 shooting), the bench has come up with with 27 points- Quinton Adlesh has 2, threes; and Jake Killingsworth may be finding his stroke again, converting 3 of 4 shots from outside the arc this afternoon.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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11-18-18 07:38 PM - Post#266255
In response to AntiUngvar
Columbia's down just 1, with 2:36 remaining; 40 points from Columbia's bench to this point; including 8 threes, courtesy of Killingsworth, Adlesh and Barba.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21192
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-18-18 07:48 PM - Post#266256
In response to AntiUngvar
What a heartbreaker.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2967
Reg: 03-02-08
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11-18-18 07:48 PM - Post#266257
In response to AntiUngvar
Sickening loss; we had the game won and turned over the inbounds pass to lose by one.
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cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2203
Reg: 10-09-09
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11-18-18 07:50 PM - Post#266258
In response to AntiUngvar
Up by 4 with 14 seconds to go, they lose by 1.
Our best game, but we are a jinxed team.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2967
Reg: 03-02-08
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 11-18-18 07:52 PM - Post#266259
In response to cc66
Why didn’t we call a time out before we ran the ill fated inbounds play?
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-18-18 07:57 PM - Post#266260
In response to Chet Forte
totally agree with Fulvio.
It does look as if Killingsworth will be helpful, despite what has said on this board.
Stef demonstrated the inconsistencies of many college players...even pros,
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2967
Reg: 03-02-08
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 11-18-18 08:01 PM - Post#266262
In response to internetter
Haven’t been called by my given name since my nonna passed. But even my nonna would have known to call a time out before inbounding the ball. We were out coached when it counted.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2967
Reg: 03-02-08
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11-18-18 08:13 PM - Post#266263
In response to Chet Forte
PS, Engles had THREE TOs left!
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2967
Reg: 03-02-08
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11-18-18 08:13 PM - Post#266264
In response to Chet Forte
Even his. Defenders on this board cannot defend his failure to call a TO.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2173
Reg: 02-14-06
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11-18-18 09:04 PM - Post#266291
In response to Chet Forte
Absolutely ridiculous dumb loss that is obviously the fault of the Columbia coaching staff for failing to first instruct the players on the floor what to do in the final 13.8 seconds of the game if Fordham scored its inevitable uncontested basket and then failing to call a time out when Fordham made that uncontested basket. Of course, the players themselves are the one who ultimately misfired--Killingsworth, for whatever reason ,threw the ball in to Adlesh rather than Mike Smith, and then Adlesh, for whatever reason, threw the ball back right back to Killinsworth in the foul circle rather than simply holding onto the ball and drawing the inevitable game ending foul. This was a pure miscommunication for which the Columbia coaching staff, of course, has to take full responsibility. After all, this is elementary stuff that every basketball coach at every level knows. I feel specially sorry for both Killingsworth who played a terrific game tonight and Adlesh who is being underutilized in his senior year. . If they had both started tonight or played more, the Lion would have won easily. At this time, Columbia's starting line-up obviously should be Tape, Smith, Stefanini, Adlesh and Killingsworth with Nweke, Brumant and Hunter coming in as the key reserves up front with Bibbs and Ellis in the backcourt. Hopefully, the coaching staff do somewhat better in their instruction from here on and the Lions will have a successful season.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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11-18-18 09:07 PM - Post#266296
In response to Chet Forte
Chet, Intent. & Sixty-six:
Eagles certainly had time outs remaining. There were TV timeout and Fordham timeout stoppages during this game, but none requested by Columbia- no full time outs or 30" CU time outs were taken. In fact, I'm willing to bet that Eagles doesn't even know that in the last minute of NCAA play, the clock stops on all made baskets, and restarts only when the ball is touched by a player on the court, during the ensuing throw in. Fordham made a three point goal with 8 seconds left- could be Eagles thought he could practically run the clock out following the made Fordham 3; in actuality, he had five seconds to think about requesting that time out- 5 seconds during which the clock wasn't moving. By whatever means we wish to explain or spin it- your team plays 3 games in 46 hours, call a freakin' time out with eight seconds remaining to get everybody on the same page, and to ensure that all five men are where you want them to be against the Fordham pressure.
I'd also say that Columbia may be an underprepared team, though not a jinxed team. BTW, can one believe in KP and jinxes during the same lifetime? CU's not jinxed-I was really impressed, in fact, that Columbia dominated the boards, for once (39-27) as a visiting team
Lastly, everybody has to understand that Game Stefanini has a huge upside potential- he's a 19 year old kid dealing with a host of cultural/ academic issues- on top of being a first time, starting member of a men's D-1 basketball team. Why not give him the same leeway you've afforded Mr. Smith?
Ordinarily, I'd be tempted to pound on Mike for his shooting of the past 2 games- only 7 for 24 and 0 for 6 from outside the arc; but he only committed 1 turnover today in 35 minutes of play; and through it all, he regularly makes his free throws, including 2 against Fordham with 13 seconds left that should have iced the game. And I must temper my remarks, given the knowledge that Engles kept Smith on the court for 102 minutes, beginning at 8:45pmon Friday night, and continuing till this evening at 6:35pm-
given that, I'm grateful that Smith was even able to make it back to Morningside Heights under his own powers. it really could have been much worse.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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11-18-18 09:37 PM - Post#266331
In response to Columbia 37P6
37P6: Interesting lineup change you now propose. My gut feeling is Bibbs and Hunter do help the team defense; though I can't state that this team defense is, so far, an improvement from that of last season. More clear is the fact that Bibbs and Hunter have done very little, through four games, on the offensive end. In fact, Hunter's been such a poor free throw shooter in his entire time at CU, that, defensive skill sets aside, there's simply no place on the court for him at the end of a close game.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 12:44 AM - Post#266566
In response to AntiUngvar
http://ivyhoopsonline.com/2018/11/19/not-so-cla ssi...
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PeteD
Masters Student
Posts: 556
Loc: California
Reg: 03-13-07
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11-20-18 01:33 AM - Post#266569
In response to internetter
I'm not willing to pin this on Engels. In fact, I think it was a good decision to not call timeout there and allow Fordham to substitute and get their defense set.
I saw the game live online and watched the replay of the final 10 sec about a half dozen times. I saw several mistakes made by the players in the final moments:
- Killingsworth could have made a better effort to get the ball into Smith's hands, but can't fault him too much for finding a wide open Adlesh.
- Once Adlesh had it, he's gotta hold onto it and force Fordham to foul. If he ran into trouble with a trap, he had the option of calling a timeout.
- The recipient of the errant pass (Stefanini) made a cut directly towards the Fordham basket.
- After Fordham gained possession, Smith stood on the opposite side of the floor guarding... no one. Tape had to guard two players in the final few seconds.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2967
Reg: 03-02-08
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11-20-18 10:02 AM - Post#266603
In response to PeteD
I completely disagree and so does even Engles. He is quoted in Spec as saying that he should have called the time out. In fact, I cannot think of a single good reason not to have done so. He would have been able to tell his guys that if you are trapped call a TO. Inexcusable failure which I will not put on the players.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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11-20-18 12:51 PM - Post#266637
In response to PeteD
PeteD:
You won't hold Coach Engles accountable for the events of Sunday at Fordham; but there were EIGHT other CU losses during the 2017-18 campaign that played out as such thanks to questionable second half game management decisions employed by the same Coach Engles - would you pin any of those on him? Chet alludes to Engles conceding to a Spectator writer that a timeout should have been taken when Columbia had the ball and the lead at the end. The coach actually said "we" should have called timeout, and "it just happened so fast."
NO, NO, NOT "WE", I, THE ONLY ADULT IN ROOM SHOULD HAVE REQUESTED A TIME OUT AS SOON AS FORDHAM HIT THE 3- that's what a man of character would have told the reporter. You, Pete, expect these kids to respond perfectly and efficiently at the end of a 3 game/ 48 hour tournament ordeal, while Engles stands there on the sideline, scratching his butt and not knowing what the f**k to do- is that right?
And when he stated that "it just happened so fast", that's simply just another dishonest rationalization. Once Fordham scored the three point goal at the 8 second mark, the game clock stopped, and would not restart again by rule till Columbia inbounded the ball and it's touched by a player on the court. Therefore, Engles had practically 5 seconds of dead ball time, while his team was preparing to inbound, to make a decision on requesting a timeout from the three referees. That Eagles didn't request a time out all game long - and in particular at the end of the game when his team had the ball and the lead- was just grounds for dismissal!
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Dr. V
PhD Student
Posts: 1537
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 12:57 PM - Post#266639
In response to Chet Forte
PeteD is right and Engels does not "completely disagree" with the type of points made by Pete. Engels is quoted as saying that in hindsight we should have called a TO. He's trying to deflect blame from his players, as a good coach should do.
Chet, with all due respect to your passion, it is ridiculous to write that one can't think of a single good reason not to have called a time out on that inbound play. If you're the defending team on an inbounds play, you always want a TO so that you can set your D up; if you're the team taking the ball out AND you're behind in the score by a little, you always want a TO to plan your desperation play; but if you're the inbounding team and you're ahead, coaches employ one of two strategies: don't take a TO so as not to give the defending team time to set its defense up and hope it won't be ready to react effectively to your trying to getting the ball in play OR take the TO, thereby giving both sides added time to plan the inbounds play. We were ahead and we were inbounding the ball, thus we had the choice of two strategies. In hindsight, we chose wrong, but that's only in hindsight.
Pete's description of what happened is accurate. I too re-wound that last play multiple times. Our players didn't execute a number of basic plays, such as not throwing a pass into a crowd.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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11-20-18 01:11 PM - Post#266644
In response to Dr. V
Pure poppycock!
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2173
Reg: 02-14-06
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11-20-18 01:32 PM - Post#266651
In response to Dr. V
I agree 100% with Chet and AntiU which means I respectfully disagree 100% with Pete D and Dr. V. Come on guys, it's absolutely ridiculous to try to blame this horrible coaching mistake on the players. Your suggestion that the players should have figured this all out by themselves without any assistance from Coach Engles' is absurd and basically insulting to our players. That's terribly unfair and unreasonable. By definition, a coach is supposed to coach and a player is supposed to play. Yes, it would have probably been a non-issue if the Lions won the game, or the players did the right thing. But they were clearly miserably unprepared for what happened and that's a fundamental coaching mistake and not their mistake.
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