Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 12:44 AM - Post#266565
Two "yardstick" games against high major opponents:
AJ Brodeur: 3-20 shooting.
Antonio Woods: 5-16 shooting, 1-9 foul shooting
Devon Goodman: 31 points, but 0 assists and 11 turnovers
The floor is open for your solutions.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 01:19 AM - Post#266567
In response to Stuart Suss
Steve clearly sees the problem, since he started Silpe twice this weekend in hope that his stellar ball protection skills (a TO in only 7% of his possessions) might steady things up. Tonight he went back to Washington as a starter, whose TO rate is as horrid as Dev’s in the early going, I assume looking for some 3-point production, and it backfired.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 01:24 AM - Post#266568
In response to Chip Bayers
I assume Defense has something to do with it as well. Washington is longer and moves his feet very well.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 07:32 AM - Post#266572
In response to SomeGuy
*whispers* to unlock AJ's offense, play smaller around him
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 07:40 AM - Post#266573
In response to Jeff2sf
It's the effect of the loss of Betley. We're trying to adjust but don't have anyone to hit that key shot coming around a pick like he could do. Our ball movement remains good, and we have some guys who can shoot from outside, but it's not enough of a threat to clear out the middle. Plus, against the better teams, we're getting killed inside as it is. Right now, we're just not quite as good as these teams.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23360
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 07:42 AM - Post#266574
In response to palestra38
We're not even close to these teams. Good thing we have Steve to fix it.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 07:50 AM - Post#266578
In response to 10Q
I think we would be close had Betley not been injured. We have other weapons against less athletic teams but no one else who can open up a big time Division 1 defense like Betley.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23360
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 08:00 AM - Post#266582
In response to palestra38
Agreed. It's going to test Steve's ability as a coach to adapt to the situation. I'm a little depressed by our inability to really compete. But I have faith that we can turn it around quickly.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 08:11 AM - Post#266586
In response to palestra38
Curious if George Mason would have adjusted, but it was probably meaningful that they likely knew exactly who they needed to stop, and yet for those first five minutes all the shots were by AJ and Betley. Once Betley got hurt, AJ went away for a while in the first half. We seemingly made some adjustments at halftime. But yes, Betley makes a big difference in our offense.
I suspect Oregon State would easily win our league — I think they are considerably better than Harvard right now (or at least they were last night).
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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11-20-18 08:41 AM - Post#266590
In response to SomeGuy
Foul shooting continues to be a big problem. Someone would have to check this but I don’t think we made the front half of a 1 and 1 against either K. State or Ore. State. When Penn plays better teams like that, those points are critical.
While Michael Wong has shown some excellent offense especially inside, I would note that 2 of his 3s against George Mason came before Betley was injured, i.e. when there was another 3 point threat on the floor. We really need another 3 point threat - Washington has shown a good ability to hit 3s. Perhaps he can be that player.
I still am optimistic that these guys can rally and, with Steve’s coaching, become really good. Facing a top 20 and a PAC-12 team can only make them better. Saturday’s game against Stockton State and next week’s game against Delaware State should provide ample opportunity to start.
Please warm up Philadelphia- it’s been easy to get used to 80 degrees every day.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 08:44 AM - Post#266591
In response to SteveChop
It's 50 today and tomorrow.
It'll be 32 Thursday.
Happy Thanksgiving.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-20-18 09:07 AM - Post#266594
In response to SteveChop
This roster may not be able to match up well against teams that are vastly more athletic and physical than we are.
AJ's play is highly dependent on whether he is athletically superior to the player he's up against. Jeff's point is a good one - since AJ is going to struggle when the D collapses around him, the counter move is to kick the ball out for open 3's. Spacing and shooting need to be better.
I didn't see the game but if Woods isn't getting open looks he isn't going to score. He struggles at creating his own shots. This is where we miss Betley - he was the best on the team at creating outside shots.
Goodman was an up and down player in prior years. I was encouraged with his play in the first four games but he was exposed the last two.
Let's see what happens against teams not as physical as K St and Ore St.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-20-18 09:16 AM - Post#266597
In response to TheLine
Not sure what you guys were watching but AJ was not double teamed against KStste or Ore State. Smaller lineups wouldn’t have mattered. He got dominated by those two bigs one on one. UNI doubled him. Those two teams were better an no scheme or personnel was going to change that. We couldn’t make open 3s and AJ was a no show.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 10:14 AM - Post#266607
In response to PennFan10
Who said he was double teamed? It's that we didn't have a credible enough outset threat to bring their defense out and free space for AJ offensively. And getting nothing from Max doesn't help, although it's not a surprise that Max really has trouble against teams at this level.
On the bright side, only St. Joe's the rest of the way really presents any kind of similar challenge.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-20-18 10:50 AM - Post#266617
In response to palestra38
The defense didn’t collapse in fact the ilopposote happened. They defended the 3 pt line in both games against HM. We moved the. All and still could t hit shots. We drove and they stayed in front of us. AJ had plenty of room and couldn’t beat their bigs one on one. That’s what I saw.
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pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 10:54 AM - Post#266619
In response to palestra38
Unless we have a Betley clone, which we don't so far, but JD is sure trying, we either double down on what we can do well and accept that we will get rolled by the big-time teams and possibly by Harvard and Yale with their talent and size this year, or we use more of our athletic players, like Scott, Simmons, Wong, Goodman, Washington etc., live with their weaknesses until they learn to play the way Steve needs then to play, and, as I posted before, add the occasional two point shot from near the foul line to help them gain confidence in their shooting (perhaps then not making shooting fouls such an adventure since they will be shooting other shots from that distance), or, as Dunphy and Steve have done, stay with their system and rely on the players who can play within that system until they ultimately prevail (even if we have to wait a year). While I would like to see the former, the smart money probably is on the latter.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 11:51 AM - Post#266623
In response to PennFan10
you may have seen that, but everything's super subtle with spacing. You take Max out and put another shooter on and suddenly everything opens up by a foot or two.
This was almost certainly not going to work anyway as the entirety of the NBA and NCAA has moved away from two bigs because SPACING.
But without Betley, it makes it that much harder. Keep bombing 3's, get Max away from blocking driving lanes and hope for the best. Make or Miss League.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 11:51 AM - Post#266624
In response to SteveChop
Steve— that isn’t correct about Wang/Betley. Wang didn’t hit a shot until after Betley left. Wang hit at 13:37 in the first half, and Betley got hurt at 15:02.
I don’t think they were even on the court together. As I mentioned in the prior post, it was all AJ/Betley before the injury. They took our first six shots.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 12:00 PM - Post#266626
In response to Jeff2sf
While last year I thought Max gummed up the works some on offense, this year it seems like the opposite. He’s not a credible shooting threat from out there, but he is passing extremely well this year. Yesterday I thought the game got away from us in part because we got away from Max (in hopes of getting more scoring from Wang — a worthy goal). Max kind of stirs the drink on offense despite not scoring much himself.
I kind of liked what the flosports announcers said about him — that he is the kind of kid where you could play 5 pickup games against him, and you look back and realize he didn’t score and yet you lost all 5 games to him.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 12:12 PM - Post#266627
In response to SomeGuy
yeah cool except we lost the last two games. I just despise this sort of tautology "well we can't measure what he did but he's out there ergo he musta done something".
I may be allowing my opinions from this tweet to color all thinking. https://twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/10 648862574...
dude went 1 for 3 and was plus 6. spark. snort. Always seems to be ascribed to white fellows too. Wonder why that is.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 12:25 PM - Post#266629
In response to Jeff2sf
Well, I think it’s more than just “we seem to win when he’s out there†with Max. He’s arguably our best passer right now.
A sort of unrelated note on the spacing/size. I think Oregon State was a tougher matchup because they are taller at every position. They may not be any better than Harvard, but they certainly are much bigger, generally with 2 bigs on the floor with 2-4 inches each on our bigs, a 6’8 guy at the 3, and guards who are 6’5. So we give away at least 2 inches at every position against them. They probably get killed in the PAC10 b/c of some of the reasons you describe about how teams play now; KState would kill them with smaller guys.
Our problem is Oregon State’s bigger guys are also faster and more athletic than we are. So we have more trouble with that matchup. We could’t defend their guards, bigs, and Tinkle at the same time. Woods could only guard one guy at a time.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 12:26 PM - Post#266631
In response to SomeGuy
Did anyone but Tinkle really hurt us?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-20-18 12:34 PM - Post#266632
In response to palestra38
Did anyone need to?
I thought the bigs in combination with Thompson were an issue as the game went on. Lots of easy buckets for the centers (who shot 9 of 10).
I thought we were slow to put Woods on Tinkle, and that might have been what we needed to do.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-20-18 12:36 PM - Post#266633
In response to Jeff2sf
We have beaten this discussion to death and as you know I completely disagree with your opinion on this so we can agree to disagree.
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Petrie
Freshman
Posts: 42
Age: 70
Reg: 11-14-16
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11-20-18 01:21 PM - Post#266645
In response to PennFan10
I just skimmed through this thread and the OSU game thread, and I thought I could offer some solace. Despite A J’s recent woes and really tough loss of Betley, buck up - right now at least, princeton sucks so bad they don’t project to be part of ivy tourney. Enjoy our misery.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-20-18 01:25 PM - Post#266649
In response to Petrie
I never do, except when Joe Scott was there because he was so obnoxious, as were the Princeton seniors. Henderson's team never was like that.
But I thought you guys were in trouble this year with 3 core players last year that weren't good enough to make the playoff and losing the only one who played D. That class that won the title had the best collection of forwards I had seen in the Ivies in a long long time---almost impossible to replace them.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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11-20-18 01:25 PM - Post#266650
In response to Petrie
I see Llewellyn hasn't played at all in either game. Is he healthy?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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11-20-18 01:45 PM - Post#266653
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
It's been tough for Princeton with no PG at all. No Cannady, LLewllyn or Morales, at least temporarily.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4910
Reg: 02-04-06
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11-20-18 02:38 PM - Post#266661
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
In the new-look Ivy, Penn runs offense through its big man while Princeton struggles without a PG. The world turned upside down.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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11-20-18 02:46 PM - Post#266662
In response to SRP
At least Bruner is healthy
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Ted
Junior
Posts: 222
Reg: 12-23-12
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11-20-18 04:39 PM - Post#266670
In response to SomeGuy
"We couldn’t defend their guards, bigs, and Tinkle at the same time."
So maybe our players should drink less water before the game? 
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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11-20-18 04:50 PM - Post#266672
In response to Ted
The race car driving circuit never did get tired of talking about Dick Trickle.
Have to wonder about his parents, though.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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11-20-18 05:59 PM - Post#266678
In response to penn nation
I used to do some work with the Baltimore Orioles team doctor, Dr. Richard Passwater. He often went by his shortened first name.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-20-18 08:14 PM - Post#266685
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Recalling the title of this thread, I recommend Oxybutynin, 10/mg.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-21-18 07:04 AM - Post#266702
In response to Old Bear
Of the three primary guys in the frontcourt rotation, Brodeur is at 78% of the 40 minutes of game time, Max 53%, Wang 41% through the first 6 games. I won’t be surprised to see Wang matching or surpassing Max fairly soon in that figure as he gains knowledge of the system at both ends.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-21-18 11:06 AM - Post#266712
In response to Chip Bayers
I would be surprised if he surpasses him because the difference in defensive ability right now is enormous. Wang can’t stay in front of anyone and Max is one of the best defensive players on the team. Tough to put a guy out there for 25+ minutes who isn’t quick enough to guard a 3 or 4 right now and not physical enough to guard a 5. Jarrod has been playing a fair bit so that is another option as he can guard the 4 or 5.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Three problems in need of solutions
11-21-18 02:25 PM - Post#266728
In response to PennFan10
Max commits a lot of fouls, and his foul rate per 40 is on par with last year. That puts a ceiling on his minutes.
But like I said, Wang needs to show more knowledge of the system at both ends before this happens. Some of the offensive rebounds and moves around the basket we’ve seen from him do not suggest a guy who lacks the athleticism to guard in the frontcourt.
Will he muscle a Mawien or a Chris Lewis off the block? No. But there aren’t a ton of those sort of guys out there to guard.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 11-21-18 02:25 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Three problems in need of solutions
11-21-18 03:47 PM - Post#266734
In response to Chip Bayers
Max commits a lot of fouls, and his foul rate per 40 is on par with last year. That puts a ceiling on his minutes.
I am not sure why a starter who commits less than 3 fouls a game and is one of the better defenders has any kind of ceiling on minutes.
I am pretty sure Max’s minutes have a lot more to do with his offense than his defense or fouls. He is considered one of the better defenders on the team,
Wang is capable of defense, just doesn’t have any experience guarding D1 players in the paint. Like none.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Three problems in need of solutions
11-22-18 09:50 AM - Post#266784
In response to PennFan10
Wang is capable of defense, just doesn’t have any experience guarding D1 players in the paint. Like none.
You are absolutely right that Wang is a freshman.
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