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Username Post: Monmouth        (Topic#22171)
Eric Von Zipper 
Freshman
Posts: 91

Age: 65
Reg: 11-11-17
11-23-18 08:09 PM - Post#266838    

Opens Princeton -2

 
Eric Von Zipper 
Freshman
Posts: 91

Age: 65
Reg: 11-11-17
11-23-18 08:15 PM - Post#266839    
    In response to Eric Von Zipper

The Blue Hawks are 0-6, averaging 60 points a game

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 03:26 PM - Post#266877    
    In response to Eric Von Zipper

I was excited to get ESPN+ to work on my TV and see the Tigers play for the first time this year. Now I wish I hadn’t. Tigers down 20-10 to 0-6 Monmouth. Pretty stunned by what I’m watching.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 03:31 PM - Post#266878    
    In response to TigerFan

Lead down to 5 as Tigers score 5 quick points. Defense seems much better when Aririguzoh is in the game.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 03:42 PM - Post#266881    
    In response to TigerFan

Lead back to 10. Just absolutely terrible basketball on both ends of the court by the Tigers. Bad shooting. Bad passing. Terrible defense. Abysmal rebounding. Ghost of Joe Scott hovering over the court.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 03:47 PM - Post#266883    
    In response to TigerFan

Unbelievable how far both of these teams have fallen in just two years.

 
Eric Von Zipper 
Freshman
Posts: 91

Age: 65
Reg: 11-11-17
11-24-18 04:01 PM - Post#266886    
    In response to TigerFan

And Penn just won by 50.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19986

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 04:18 PM - Post#266887    
    In response to Eric Von Zipper

That was against Stockton State. Joke game.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 04:21 PM - Post#266890    
    In response to palestra38

Commentators noting that there is zero evidence of the Princeton offense on display today.

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 04:27 PM - Post#266891    
    In response to TigerFan

Tigers doing absolutely nothing to help teammates get shots. Also getting outhustled on just about every loose ball. Down 12.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1519
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 68
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 05:01 PM - Post#266894    
    In response to TigerFan

Finally. Thanks DC3

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 05:04 PM - Post#266896    
    In response to TigerFan

DC has just gone off in the last 10 minutes and takes the Tigers up 3 with 35 seconds to play. Wow!

 
TigerFan 
PhD Student
Posts: 1139

Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 05:10 PM - Post#266897    
    In response to TigerFan

Tigers take a gritty 60-57 win. Man do they have a lot of work to do though.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1519
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 68
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 05:12 PM - Post#266898    
    In response to TigerFan

A second good 3 point shooter would be nice.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3588

Reg: 02-04-06
11-24-18 05:20 PM - Post#266899    
    In response to TigerFan

That was a nice blowtorch job by Cannady, melting the rim down the stretch. Did not want to account for Monmouth's first win of the season.

Except for two ill-chosen drives late in the second half, I loved Morales's game tonight. He set a tone for steals and deflections and drawing charges and provided what little action the Tigers had in moving the Monmouth defense during long stretches of offensive doldrums. Aririguzoh played good defense, Johns showed some activity, Stephens made a defensive impact and even took an open three when he was left alone.

Once again, getting some ball pressure and harassing the other team allowed the Tigers to look OK on defense. They committed too many fouls, even though I thought the officiating was somewhat one-sided in favor of the Hawks.

Please let's have some offensive structure of some kind. Set some off-ball screens for Cannady to catch and shoot at least. Dribble in a little bit and then zip the ball crosscourt when the help side moves toward the lane. Run some Cannady-Stephens ball screens. Rudimentary stuff. (I guess it's too much to expect backdoor action or high-post play this year.)

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1519
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 68
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
11-24-18 05:41 PM - Post#266901    
    In response to SRP

I had the sound off and was watching on my computer.

Did not Ethan Wright have a nice put-back to end the first half, and a strong drive to the hoop late in the second half?

 
westcoast 
Sophomore
Posts: 119

Reg: 03-08-16
11-24-18 05:55 PM - Post#266906    
    In response to 1LotteryPick1969

Yes, Wright did make those two key plays, and actually led the Tigers in +/- with +15. Morales is the quicker guard, and can be a real pest on defense, but Wright also looks like a solid defender, and he does a good job with rebounding, handling the ball, and getting to the rim.

 
Petrie 
Freshman
Posts: 32

Age: 65
Reg: 11-14-16
11-24-18 05:57 PM - Post#266907    
    In response to SRP

I’ve hesitated to bring this up, since I’m guessing it’s a bit of a tired topic on this board, but I note a couple recent references.

What ever happened to putting opponents in unfamiliar territory by running ultra disciplined offense, constant movement, constant cutting to basket, ball screens, ie the Princeton offense. Not talking about a pure version - take fast breaks, take early 3’s or lay-ups, but when play has settled, why can’t we get into the familar sets and patterns that always made Princeton distinctive? Whatever happened to The Smart Take from the Strong ? And it’s not just offense - When matchups are not advantageous why aren’t we in a zone, capitalizing on opponents’ impatience, and mitigating quickness and/or size deficits ? Is carill’s 1-2-2 match up no longer teachable?

Now, watching the tigers is no different than watching any mid-major hoping to be pretty good. I don’t know if I’m more angry or saddened.

I’ve been watching for over 50 yrs, and I’ll always watch, and root, and look for any news of tiger bball, but just had to get this off my chest.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-24-18 06:47 PM - Post#266914    
    In response to Petrie

I hear you but I kind of disagree. The problem is that the Tigers are putting 3 guys on the floor that you can win with right now -- Cannady, Stephens and Arirguzoh. If Llewellyn is a very good player, they need a 5th player that they can consistently rely up even if a limited role of playing good defense and/or rebounding and 2 reliable back ups.

Schweigger, Gladson, DesRosiers. Much, Frieberg, Johns, and Wright is not getting it done. Morales showed some life today as he can penetrate. If Llewellyn can penetrate as well as I think, there should be some wide open looks.

Cannady and Stephens are very good but the need help. Who, if anyone, will step up. Much has some ability but he looks like he has lost confidence.

Where is Soencer?

 
Petrie 
Freshman
Posts: 32

Age: 65
Reg: 11-14-16
11-24-18 07:27 PM - Post#266918    
    In response to bradley

I agree this team could be very much improved by mid-season. There seem to be plenty of good pieces, assuming Llewellyn is a starter and at least one of the other freshman makes a good contribution, and I think both assumptions come true.
I think Henderson has brought in very good talent, which makes my frustration even greater - with these kind of players operating a system ( offense and defense) with the discipline of PU teams from the past, the sky’s the limit. We’d be beating Power 5 conference teams in Non-conference, and maybe winning a game or 2 in ncaa. I used to always wonder what the Princeton system could do with really good players.

Alright - I’m done complaining. Go tigers

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3588

Reg: 02-04-06
11-24-18 09:56 PM - Post#266933    
    In response to Petrie

Obviously, from the above, I sympathize with your concerns, but to play devil's advocate, recent Tiger teams have had excellent offensive efficiency statistics while deviating more and more from the traditional Princeton offense sets. The undefeated champions of two seasons ago hit very few backdoor plays, and the high post was used 90% of the time for handoffs to cutters (almost a ball screen).

BUT...those teams did have some distinctive and disruptive ways of attacking the defense, notably via crisp crosscourt passes (a Weisz specialty) and by no-look backward bounce passes to a corner shooter by a player driving in from the wing. AND those teams had a lot of decent-to-very-good three-point shooters. PU's offense in the last couple of games would have looked vastly better with even a 1/3 hit rate from beyond the arc, rather than the anemic percentages actually posted.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1519
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 68
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
11-25-18 05:41 AM - Post#266947    
    In response to Petrie

  • Petrie Said:

What ever happened to putting opponents in unfamiliar territory by running ultra disciplined offense, constant movement, constant cutting to basket, ball screens, ie the Princeton offense. Not talking about a pure version - take fast breaks, take early 3’s or lay-ups, but when play has settled, why can’t we get into the familar sets and patterns that always made Princeton distinctive? Whatever happened to The Smart Take from the Strong ? And it’s not just offense - When matchups are not advantageous why aren’t we in a zone, capitalizing on opponents’ impatience, and mitigating quickness and/or size deficits ? Is carill’s 1-2-2 match up no longer teachable?

Now, watching the tigers is no different than watching any mid-major hoping to be pretty good. I don’t know if I’m more angry or saddened.





There is no greater admirer of Carill and his style than I. All of us more senior fans feel much as you do at some level.

But I watch now not to see a style of play, but to admire the players for their talent and dedication to a sport I love, knowing that these are true student athletes attending a demanding academic institution, playing in a facility I played in myself (intramural yes, but the same game).



 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-25-18 08:50 AM - Post#266961    
    In response to SRP

Monmouth game commentators stated during the game that Mitch advised them pre-game that other teams use the "Princeton offense" against the Tigers during the recruiting process. One of the commentators, former Monmouth player, suggested that recruits should not care about being in the Princeton system if the Tigers win but some recruits will care in this era.

The question is "can the Tigers recruit a talent like Jaelin if Mitch had kept the Princeton offense"? -- probably not.

I would rather have Morales, preferably Jaelin, attack the basket and kick out like yesterday unlike when Schweigger or whoever is on the floor simply passing around the perimeter. It is why I believe that we will not know what the Tiger team will be like until Jaelin is on the floor. Final note is that Tigers will not continue to shoot 24% on 3 pt shots with Morales or Llewellyn on the floor.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 283

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
11-25-18 11:01 AM - Post#266969    
    In response to bradley

This team will shoot better when Llewellyn is healthy and Frieberg gets out of his funk. The problem long term is defense. If Richmond can't stay on the floor for 30 minutes+ the other frontcourt people will be overmatched. I have not seen any progress from the sophomores, if anything they appear to have regressed. We do know they will work very hard always. I love Cannady at the end of close games.

 
Petrie 
Freshman
Posts: 32

Age: 65
Reg: 11-14-16
11-25-18 02:38 PM - Post#266984    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I said I was done, but feel like some response would be polite, and really I don’t disagree with the critiques of my position. As srp points out the team a couple years ago was tremendous, as good and as fun to watch as any I can remember. And without checking the archives, I would bet Mitch’s winning % is better than Carill’s. But as he said, we are “ deviating more and more from the traditional.” I’m disappointed the deviation has continued to the point of complete abandonment.

In regard to recruiting, it seems to me a loosening rather than abandonment might still work, though I agree Bradley, probably not with speed merchant like Llewellyn. Almost every recruit I hear speaks of the tradition of PU b-ball , and I don’t think they are talking about the Van Breda Koff (sp?) years. I would submit the tradition was forged by unusual discipline, and belief in their system. Will high school kids in a few years still buy into the tradition when the only Pu teams they’ve seen look like any other mid-major?

I still watch and care for the reasons lottery pick mentioned, but seeing Princeton play less disciplined , with less structure than their opponent is jarring.

Let’s hope Llewellyn gets healthy soon, another freshman emerges, and the sophomores realize the promise they showed last year. And maybe we see a little less one on one and a little more structured offense.
And please, don’t play only man to man against Duke and st Johns.



 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
11-25-18 02:54 PM - Post#266985    
    In response to Petrie

Geoff:
You really should know this, since you hired the guy to work for you in Sacramento- Carril, WPCT. (at Princeton): .663
Carril, WPCT. (Overall, NCAA including 1 yr. at Lehigh): .658
Henderson, WPCT.: .630


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3588

Reg: 02-04-06
11-25-18 03:09 PM - Post#266986    
    In response to AntiUngvar

I heard the negative recruiting business too. But I'd be thrilled if the Tigers played in the style of the Warriors or the great Spurs teams, which use the same basic principles without the high-post hub. Hard to negatively recruit NBA stuff.

The main thing the commentator quoted MH on was pace, and PU is going slowly this year and last.

 
Petrie 
Freshman
Posts: 32

Age: 65
Reg: 11-14-16
11-25-18 03:21 PM - Post#266987    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Well Petey was never one to brag. Tks for stats.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-25-18 06:24 PM - Post#266999    
    In response to SRP

Mitch did say that they still use some of the basic principles of the "Princeton offense" although he uses other elements to the offense. Honestly, I see very little of the Princeton offense especially the lack of back door plays.

What I do see is a very good 3 pt shooter with ice in his veins. There is a reason why someone had Devin on the top 30 list of 3 pt shooters in the country. It does not always go by just sheer percentage, although he is shooting at 56% over only two games, but it is also a function of hitting them when it counts which Devin has done throughout his career excluding one last shot against Notre Dame. I am not sure that Devin always gets the accolades that he deserves but he will go down as one of the best in Tiger history at the end of the day.

Stephens and Cannady are two of the top ten players in the IL and they are seniors. Myles has still not hit full stride and Cannady still has a little hangover from the injury.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3588

Reg: 02-04-06
11-25-18 06:34 PM - Post#267000    
    In response to bradley

Cannady is phenomenal. There are not a lot of guys who can hit strings of threes during pressure situations while fighting to get open against defenses targeting him, dropping in bombs from way behind the arc. When you consider his high FT percentage overall and at the ends of games, as well as his abnormally high rebounding rate for a guy playing his position, it's even more impressive.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-26-18 07:50 PM - Post#267161    
    In response to SRP

On cue, Devin was honored as IL player of the week by scoring 42 points in two games on 27 FGA -- shooting at 56% with 5 rebounds per game. There is an arguement for him to take more shots but he simply does not heave up shots.

Carlie Littlefied received POW as well based on an incredible performance in Cancun where she was named to the all tournament team. Lady Tigers were up by 15 pts in the 2nd quarter against #16 team and tied after 3 quarters. Their schedule has been simply insane especially without POY Alarie but she will be back shortly. Probably, the best 1-5 team in the country. Once Alarie returns, they will be very good this year and then, great next year.

 
HGA 
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 5

Loc: New York
Reg: 10-16-18
11-27-18 02:08 PM - Post#267237    
    In response to bradley

I agree with the assessment of Cannady as a top shooter, and his performance this weekend solidified it. Its a shame that someone supporting another Ivy school attempted to make a comparison to one of their current players.....not even close!

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
11-27-18 06:00 PM - Post#267259    
    In response to HGA

HGA:
There's never shame in expressing an opinion, particularly when the numbers support the position taken. For the 2017-18 season, Quinton Adlesh finishes as one of the nation's best three-point shooters, at .446, 3pt.%.
For the identical time period, Devin Cannady shot
.394, 3pt.%
Overall, Adlesh's FGPct. was .465,
while Cannady's FGPct. was .452
You want to say Cannady's a better shooter; that he's taken more shots than Adlesh during the past season's, I can respect such assertions. But the numbers allow us to make a valid comparison here, and, again, there's no shame in making it. Adlesh was 14th in the country in 3pt.% for Division-1 men's basketball; I state that not as a fan of this student-athlete or of school he competes for; but only because I'm viewing a listing with his name on it.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19986

Reg: 11-21-04
Monmouth
11-27-18 06:06 PM - Post#267260    
    In response to AntiUngvar

If he's so great, why is he not starting this year? You've made your point repeatedly, limited to his performance from 3 over a single year. Fine, the numbers are what the numbers are. He can't hold Cannady's jockstrap. BTW, over their careers, Cannady is .419 from 3 and Adlesh is .424, while Cannady does everything else better.

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
Re: Monmouth
11-27-18 06:25 PM - Post#267262    
    In response to palestra38

There you go again..... I've already sucked all the air out of this topic; and I'm obviously NOT directing anything to you; but because of your strange predisposition and insecurity, you're compelled to write me, and, as per usual, mischaracterize the topic, at hand. Not much has transpired this season; but you've got a point that he hasn't started, though I see that more as a statement about the coach than the player. You can say the numbers are what they are; but I haven't crafted these numbers, and the body of numbers for last season is favorable to him; in fact, you further my point by mention of the 4-year 3 pt.% of the two players- thank you for that! Yes, there was some back and forth about these two seniors -under the subtext of shooters- a few weeks ago, and you altered the topic then as you do again now. I understand that you can write all you want about not carrying someone's jock (by the way you used the word 'great', not I). But you still need to come to terms with a very basic point: just because you say something is, doesn't necessarily make it true; nor that the rest of the world need be in tune with your brilliance.


Edited by AntiUngvar on 11-27-18 06:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1273

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
11-27-18 06:29 PM - Post#267263    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Guys, you are arguing past each other:

Adlesh can shoot 3's (AntiUngar's numbers)
Cannady plays at an entirely different level

No comparison between them unless they are left open beyond the 3 point line.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19986

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Monmouth
11-27-18 06:32 PM - Post#267264    
    In response to AntiUngvar

If there is anyone on this board who is fascinated by his own brilliance, it is you, my friend.

And I gave you statistics, not just my opinion. You just have an abject inability to leave a topic alone after you offer your opinion.

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
Re: Monmouth
11-27-18 06:56 PM - Post#267270    
    In response to palestra38

And the statistics you offer buttress my point that there is a comparison to be made between these two as shooters, which is the ONLY comparison I'm making.


 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
11-27-18 07:07 PM - Post#267271    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

HDG: Don't know that you picked up on my remarks being limited to the two players as shooters. I respect your commentary on Cannady; but Adlesh had quite a body of work to show for himself last year, as well. And now that you've introduced the notion of Cannady as a player on another level- were that true, then we should have all seen his team playing in at least one game in Philadelphia last March.


 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-27-18 08:43 PM - Post#267299    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I have stayed away from this entire debate from the begining but you have succiently stated the obvious from my perspective. Just go ask any of the IL coaches as to which player would they want to take the last shot -- Cannady would be unanaminous even though I am sure that the coaches hold Adlesh 3 pt shooting abilities in high regard.

I find some of the daebates that simply rely on statistics as overly simplimistic. Statistics are important but do not tell the whole story. One of the reasons why NBA teams hire scouts versus simply relying on a computer.

Finally, Cannady is 16 on 3 pt shots will no while all other Tiger 3 pt shooters are 10 of 62 (16%). In all likelihood, these stats will significantly change over time on both ends -- for Tiger fans, let's hope so.

 
westcoast 
Sophomore
Posts: 119

Reg: 03-08-16
11-28-18 02:06 AM - Post#267310    
    In response to bradley

The point that AntiUngvar fails to address is that the ranking was about shooters, not three point shooters.

https://watchstadium.com/news/jeff-goodman-ran ks-t...

Cannady's career shooting numbers (FG% / 3PT% / FT%) are 45.1/41.9/90.4 Adlesh's career numbers are at 44.6/42.4/65.8.

Free throw shooting is a huge part of being considered a great shooter, and Cannady's >90% FT rate is fantastic. Adlesh, who has never shot over 70% in a season, is not a very good free throw shooter. So he was never a serious consideration for the "Top 30 Shooter" list.

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
11-28-18 08:19 AM - Post#267320    
    In response to westcoast

You're right about that, WC. Another thing I failed to address was head to head matchups- or at last what the two did when their teams have already met. I'm just glad this whole subject won't die; and frankly that's not all due to me. In fact, we'll probably be hearing from that dark cloud in PA any moment now.


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3366

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
Monmouth
11-28-18 11:29 AM - Post#267346    
    In response to AntiUngvar

I, for one, am REALLY enjoying this conversation.

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
Monmouth
11-28-18 11:59 AM - Post#267351    
    In response to westcoast

Indeed, I'm glad you are, SM, & now the the cloud has passed, WC, let me mention that the Columbia and Princeton men played their normal home and home games last season (Jan. 12 at Princeton and Feb. 17 at Columbia), with each school team winning on its home courts.
Overall, Adlesh shot 12 of 21 from the field (.571);
while Cannady shot 10 of 23 (,435);
from outside the arc, Adlesh shot 7 of 11 (.636);
while Cannady made 4 of 12 (.333);
Adlesh missed both of his free throws in these two Princeton games (.000);
while Cannady converted all four of his FTAs, (1.000). SO in these two matchups, Columbia versus Princeton last season and over the course of the entire 2017-18 season, Canada was the better free throw shooter. In other aspects of outside shooting, Adlesh did enough in these two games and in al of last season to demonstrate that he, at very least, belongs in the conversation with Cannady- in fact, he more than held his own.
P.S.: They'll both be at Madison Square Garden on December 9th, when Columbia plays Iona and Princeton faces St. John's in the Holiday Festival tournament- we can certainly pick this up then.


Edited by AntiUngvar on 11-28-18 12:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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