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Username Post: Monmouth        (Topic#22171)
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3588

Reg: 02-04-06
11-24-18 09:56 PM - Post#266933    
    In response to Petrie

Obviously, from the above, I sympathize with your concerns, but to play devil's advocate, recent Tiger teams have had excellent offensive efficiency statistics while deviating more and more from the traditional Princeton offense sets. The undefeated champions of two seasons ago hit very few backdoor plays, and the high post was used 90% of the time for handoffs to cutters (almost a ball screen).

BUT...those teams did have some distinctive and disruptive ways of attacking the defense, notably via crisp crosscourt passes (a Weisz specialty) and by no-look backward bounce passes to a corner shooter by a player driving in from the wing. AND those teams had a lot of decent-to-very-good three-point shooters. PU's offense in the last couple of games would have looked vastly better with even a 1/3 hit rate from beyond the arc, rather than the anemic percentages actually posted.

 
1LotteryPick1969 
PhD Student
Posts: 1519
1LotteryPick1969
Age: 68
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland
Reg: 11-21-04
11-25-18 05:41 AM - Post#266947    
    In response to Petrie

  • Petrie Said:

What ever happened to putting opponents in unfamiliar territory by running ultra disciplined offense, constant movement, constant cutting to basket, ball screens, ie the Princeton offense. Not talking about a pure version - take fast breaks, take early 3’s or lay-ups, but when play has settled, why can’t we get into the familar sets and patterns that always made Princeton distinctive? Whatever happened to The Smart Take from the Strong ? And it’s not just offense - When matchups are not advantageous why aren’t we in a zone, capitalizing on opponents’ impatience, and mitigating quickness and/or size deficits ? Is carill’s 1-2-2 match up no longer teachable?

Now, watching the tigers is no different than watching any mid-major hoping to be pretty good. I don’t know if I’m more angry or saddened.





There is no greater admirer of Carill and his style than I. All of us more senior fans feel much as you do at some level.

But I watch now not to see a style of play, but to admire the players for their talent and dedication to a sport I love, knowing that these are true student athletes attending a demanding academic institution, playing in a facility I played in myself (intramural yes, but the same game).



 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-25-18 08:50 AM - Post#266961    
    In response to SRP

Monmouth game commentators stated during the game that Mitch advised them pre-game that other teams use the "Princeton offense" against the Tigers during the recruiting process. One of the commentators, former Monmouth player, suggested that recruits should not care about being in the Princeton system if the Tigers win but some recruits will care in this era.

The question is "can the Tigers recruit a talent like Jaelin if Mitch had kept the Princeton offense"? -- probably not.

I would rather have Morales, preferably Jaelin, attack the basket and kick out like yesterday unlike when Schweigger or whoever is on the floor simply passing around the perimeter. It is why I believe that we will not know what the Tiger team will be like until Jaelin is on the floor. Final note is that Tigers will not continue to shoot 24% on 3 pt shots with Morales or Llewellyn on the floor.

 
JadwinGeorge 
Junior
Posts: 283

Age: 70
Reg: 12-04-15
11-25-18 11:01 AM - Post#266969    
    In response to bradley

This team will shoot better when Llewellyn is healthy and Frieberg gets out of his funk. The problem long term is defense. If Richmond can't stay on the floor for 30 minutes+ the other frontcourt people will be overmatched. I have not seen any progress from the sophomores, if anything they appear to have regressed. We do know they will work very hard always. I love Cannady at the end of close games.

 
Petrie 
Freshman
Posts: 32

Age: 65
Reg: 11-14-16
11-25-18 02:38 PM - Post#266984    
    In response to JadwinGeorge

I said I was done, but feel like some response would be polite, and really I don’t disagree with the critiques of my position. As srp points out the team a couple years ago was tremendous, as good and as fun to watch as any I can remember. And without checking the archives, I would bet Mitch’s winning % is better than Carill’s. But as he said, we are “ deviating more and more from the traditional.” I’m disappointed the deviation has continued to the point of complete abandonment.

In regard to recruiting, it seems to me a loosening rather than abandonment might still work, though I agree Bradley, probably not with speed merchant like Llewellyn. Almost every recruit I hear speaks of the tradition of PU b-ball , and I don’t think they are talking about the Van Breda Koff (sp?) years. I would submit the tradition was forged by unusual discipline, and belief in their system. Will high school kids in a few years still buy into the tradition when the only Pu teams they’ve seen look like any other mid-major?

I still watch and care for the reasons lottery pick mentioned, but seeing Princeton play less disciplined , with less structure than their opponent is jarring.

Let’s hope Llewellyn gets healthy soon, another freshman emerges, and the sophomores realize the promise they showed last year. And maybe we see a little less one on one and a little more structured offense.
And please, don’t play only man to man against Duke and st Johns.



 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
11-25-18 02:54 PM - Post#266985    
    In response to Petrie

Geoff:
You really should know this, since you hired the guy to work for you in Sacramento- Carril, WPCT. (at Princeton): .663
Carril, WPCT. (Overall, NCAA including 1 yr. at Lehigh): .658
Henderson, WPCT.: .630


 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3588

Reg: 02-04-06
11-25-18 03:09 PM - Post#266986    
    In response to AntiUngvar

I heard the negative recruiting business too. But I'd be thrilled if the Tigers played in the style of the Warriors or the great Spurs teams, which use the same basic principles without the high-post hub. Hard to negatively recruit NBA stuff.

The main thing the commentator quoted MH on was pace, and PU is going slowly this year and last.

 
Petrie 
Freshman
Posts: 32

Age: 65
Reg: 11-14-16
11-25-18 03:21 PM - Post#266987    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Well Petey was never one to brag. Tks for stats.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-25-18 06:24 PM - Post#266999    
    In response to SRP

Mitch did say that they still use some of the basic principles of the "Princeton offense" although he uses other elements to the offense. Honestly, I see very little of the Princeton offense especially the lack of back door plays.

What I do see is a very good 3 pt shooter with ice in his veins. There is a reason why someone had Devin on the top 30 list of 3 pt shooters in the country. It does not always go by just sheer percentage, although he is shooting at 56% over only two games, but it is also a function of hitting them when it counts which Devin has done throughout his career excluding one last shot against Notre Dame. I am not sure that Devin always gets the accolades that he deserves but he will go down as one of the best in Tiger history at the end of the day.

Stephens and Cannady are two of the top ten players in the IL and they are seniors. Myles has still not hit full stride and Cannady still has a little hangover from the injury.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 3588

Reg: 02-04-06
11-25-18 06:34 PM - Post#267000    
    In response to bradley

Cannady is phenomenal. There are not a lot of guys who can hit strings of threes during pressure situations while fighting to get open against defenses targeting him, dropping in bombs from way behind the arc. When you consider his high FT percentage overall and at the ends of games, as well as his abnormally high rebounding rate for a guy playing his position, it's even more impressive.

 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-26-18 07:50 PM - Post#267161    
    In response to SRP

On cue, Devin was honored as IL player of the week by scoring 42 points in two games on 27 FGA -- shooting at 56% with 5 rebounds per game. There is an arguement for him to take more shots but he simply does not heave up shots.

Carlie Littlefied received POW as well based on an incredible performance in Cancun where she was named to the all tournament team. Lady Tigers were up by 15 pts in the 2nd quarter against #16 team and tied after 3 quarters. Their schedule has been simply insane especially without POY Alarie but she will be back shortly. Probably, the best 1-5 team in the country. Once Alarie returns, they will be very good this year and then, great next year.

 
HGA 
Pre-Frosh
Posts: 5

Loc: New York
Reg: 10-16-18
11-27-18 02:08 PM - Post#267237    
    In response to bradley

I agree with the assessment of Cannady as a top shooter, and his performance this weekend solidified it. Its a shame that someone supporting another Ivy school attempted to make a comparison to one of their current players.....not even close!

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
11-27-18 06:00 PM - Post#267259    
    In response to HGA

HGA:
There's never shame in expressing an opinion, particularly when the numbers support the position taken. For the 2017-18 season, Quinton Adlesh finishes as one of the nation's best three-point shooters, at .446, 3pt.%.
For the identical time period, Devin Cannady shot
.394, 3pt.%
Overall, Adlesh's FGPct. was .465,
while Cannady's FGPct. was .452
You want to say Cannady's a better shooter; that he's taken more shots than Adlesh during the past season's, I can respect such assertions. But the numbers allow us to make a valid comparison here, and, again, there's no shame in making it. Adlesh was 14th in the country in 3pt.% for Division-1 men's basketball; I state that not as a fan of this student-athlete or of school he competes for; but only because I'm viewing a listing with his name on it.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19986

Reg: 11-21-04
Monmouth
11-27-18 06:06 PM - Post#267260    
    In response to AntiUngvar

If he's so great, why is he not starting this year? You've made your point repeatedly, limited to his performance from 3 over a single year. Fine, the numbers are what the numbers are. He can't hold Cannady's jockstrap. BTW, over their careers, Cannady is .419 from 3 and Adlesh is .424, while Cannady does everything else better.

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
Re: Monmouth
11-27-18 06:25 PM - Post#267262    
    In response to palestra38

There you go again..... I've already sucked all the air out of this topic; and I'm obviously NOT directing anything to you; but because of your strange predisposition and insecurity, you're compelled to write me, and, as per usual, mischaracterize the topic, at hand. Not much has transpired this season; but you've got a point that he hasn't started, though I see that more as a statement about the coach than the player. You can say the numbers are what they are; but I haven't crafted these numbers, and the body of numbers for last season is favorable to him; in fact, you further my point by mention of the 4-year 3 pt.% of the two players- thank you for that! Yes, there was some back and forth about these two seniors -under the subtext of shooters- a few weeks ago, and you altered the topic then as you do again now. I understand that you can write all you want about not carrying someone's jock (by the way you used the word 'great', not I). But you still need to come to terms with a very basic point: just because you say something is, doesn't necessarily make it true; nor that the rest of the world need be in tune with your brilliance.


Edited by AntiUngvar on 11-27-18 06:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
PhD Student
Posts: 1273

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
11-27-18 06:29 PM - Post#267263    
    In response to AntiUngvar

Guys, you are arguing past each other:

Adlesh can shoot 3's (AntiUngar's numbers)
Cannady plays at an entirely different level

No comparison between them unless they are left open beyond the 3 point line.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 19986

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Monmouth
11-27-18 06:32 PM - Post#267264    
    In response to AntiUngvar

If there is anyone on this board who is fascinated by his own brilliance, it is you, my friend.

And I gave you statistics, not just my opinion. You just have an abject inability to leave a topic alone after you offer your opinion.

 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
Re: Monmouth
11-27-18 06:56 PM - Post#267270    
    In response to palestra38

And the statistics you offer buttress my point that there is a comparison to be made between these two as shooters, which is the ONLY comparison I'm making.


 
AntiUngvar 
Junior
Posts: 217

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
11-27-18 07:07 PM - Post#267271    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

HDG: Don't know that you picked up on my remarks being limited to the two players as shooters. I respect your commentary on Cannady; but Adlesh had quite a body of work to show for himself last year, as well. And now that you've introduced the notion of Cannady as a player on another level- were that true, then we should have all seen his team playing in at least one game in Philadelphia last March.


 
bradley 
Masters Student
Posts: 853

Age: 69
Reg: 01-15-16
11-27-18 08:43 PM - Post#267299    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

I have stayed away from this entire debate from the begining but you have succiently stated the obvious from my perspective. Just go ask any of the IL coaches as to which player would they want to take the last shot -- Cannady would be unanaminous even though I am sure that the coaches hold Adlesh 3 pt shooting abilities in high regard.

I find some of the daebates that simply rely on statistics as overly simplimistic. Statistics are important but do not tell the whole story. One of the reasons why NBA teams hire scouts versus simply relying on a computer.

Finally, Cannady is 16 on 3 pt shots will no while all other Tiger 3 pt shooters are 10 of 62 (16%). In all likelihood, these stats will significantly change over time on both ends -- for Tiger fans, let's hope so.

 
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