10Q
Professor
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Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-28-18 05:42 PM - Post#267397
I haven't looked at the stats, but to my eye, he doesn't look all that much better now than he was as a freshman. Of course, he was a revelation as a freshman. I just am hoping that he will continue to improve, to the point where he can be more dominant. Maybe I'm asking for too much.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32819
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Has Brodeur Improved?
11-28-18 05:45 PM - Post#267399
In response to 10Q
I think you're correct in that his scoring is down and his shooting percentage is down--missing far too many bunnies. But he's getting his shots. I think he'll be fine.
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10Q
Professor
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Loc: Suburban Philly
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Has Brodeur Improved?
11-28-18 05:48 PM - Post#267402
In response to palestra38
When I was attending games at Alligator Alley in the late 70's the Gators' big men always got much much better as they got older. Of course, they were athletic guys who were at least 6' 10". Brodeur isn't that tall, but he also doesn't look like he lifts weights much. Shouldn't that be a priority?
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
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Has Brodeur Improved?
11-28-18 05:57 PM - Post#267403
In response to 10Q
Very interesting thread topic. I think I've made my feelings known about the non-development in using his left hand, I'd have hoped that his free throw % would have improved (like Pavlik was raving about Max's growth in this department), I hoped he would follow the Mark Zoller path with shooting 3s, and I do get frustrated at all the misses around the basket, BUT his passing is better, the putrid put the ball on the floor turnovers are down, and he is many times the focus of opposing defenses. All in all I think there is still a lot of room for him to grow. He has the skill to create those open bunnies, so as Palestra says, he should be fine.
I disagree on the weights. I think he has gotten stronger and his wide shoulders help.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Has Brodeur Improved?
11-28-18 06:13 PM - Post#267406
In response to Quakers03
BUT his passing is better, the putrid put the ball on the floor turnovers are down, and he is many times the focus of opposing defenses.
This. Such an important difference from his freshman year. This didn't matter much out of conference when teams played him straight up, but against Ivy teams where he faced constant doubles from the get-go this was a killer early on. He has gotten so much better at this, and the offense is much more efficient as a result.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
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11-28-18 06:32 PM - Post#267412
In response to penn nation
Let's keep perspective. While he might not have improved much, I'd peg him as a favorite to be POY.
I'd wait a few more games to let his numbers settle.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-23-04
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11-28-18 07:19 PM - Post#267418
In response to TheLine
I think AJ has also gotten significantly better at seeing around the double team and finding open teammates.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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11-28-18 07:47 PM - Post#267420
In response to Silver Maple
Certainly not his FT shooting. He has a lot going on at the line. His feet point left, he bends his knees a lot and holds the ball low. Anytime you are misaligned and have multiple large joints that have to move to shoot a FT, that's too much going on.
He has worked on his left hand, but seems to have a mental block using it. He also was using his hook shot as a bit of a mid lane floater in early games and has gotten away from it recently for some reason.
I don't think he has improved as much as he could have, but that doesn't mean he isn't still our best player.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
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11-28-18 08:58 PM - Post#267436
In response to PennFan10
I think he is improving each year, but he also came in as a highly developed player. He may have been a lot closer to his ceiling than a lot of guys. On the strength/fitness issue, he’s playing 35+ when the games are competitive. Max isn’t able to do that, despite appearing more muscular. I think AJ is fine on that score.
The one thing that surprised me, though, is that AJ gave an interview during the off-season where he basically said he wouldn’t be adding much to his game. May be a context thing, and could be he didn’t want to give anything away, but usually even the best players are going to be picking out something to add/improve every offseason.
Finally, he came in playing well enough that the individual improvement can be hard to see. Did Ryan Wittman and Louis Dale improve at Cornell? The individual numbers say no, but they won a lot more games as they went on. That seems to be the case with AJ thus far too (and hopefully it continues).
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
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11-28-18 09:03 PM - Post#267438
In response to SomeGuy
When you guys talk about whether or not AJ has improved, you guys are talking almost solely about his offensive game. I think he's gotten better as a defender. He's arguably our best post defender, and he manages to play the position while only rarely getting into foul trouble (would be nice if he could cut down on the moving screens, though). He's a good help defender and gets a significant number of blocks in that role.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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11-28-18 09:22 PM - Post#267442
In response to weinhauers_ghost
AJ is a great player, and Penn is very lucky to have him-- he'll go down as one of the greats. I'd like to suggest we cut the kid a break.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23379
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-28-18 09:47 PM - Post#267449
In response to Silver Maple
We all appreciate AJ. I wish we had lots more just like him.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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11-28-18 11:24 PM - Post#267468
In response to Silver Maple
AJ is a great player, and Penn is very lucky to have him-- he'll go down as one of the greats. I'd like to suggest we cut the kid a break.
What are you his mother? Cut him a break? This is a discussion board. Criticize the hell out of him.
That said, I’d take 3 AJ’s if we could get them!
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-29-18 01:16 AM - Post#267475
In response to PennFan10
AJ had such a high motor from the beginning, so he had less development than many. The easiest and lowest hanging fruit for the whole team is to just hit their free throws. I would suggest that they see a sports psychologist about it, as I think it is more mental than physical or technical.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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11-29-18 08:54 AM - Post#267479
In response to Penndemonium
Isn't there already a sports psychologist on the staff?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-29-18 09:04 AM - Post#267481
In response to Silver Maple
If so, then maybe they're need a shooting coach! 
Isn't there already a sports psychologist on the staff?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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11-29-18 11:28 AM - Post#267495
In response to Penndemonium
AJ had such a high motor from the beginning, so he had less development than many.
I don't think there is a player in the game who can't develop their game dramatically. Certainly none in the Ivy league.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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11-29-18 12:10 PM - Post#267497
In response to Silver Maple
No question he will go down in Penn lore as one of those decade players...Not to mention he helped bring us back from the brink.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-29-18 12:24 PM - Post#267502
In response to Quakers03
pf10, i just don't think that's true (everyone significant development). it seems to reward tommy try-hard more than others who either developed those parts of their game earlier or are more advanced.
A way I think of it is that when i started running, i was super slow (i still am super slow) but was able to cut my mile time by 25% with moderate work outs. faster, more advanced runners just aren't able to realize those gains because either they already made them or they just run against a natural limit. I mean if AJ improved as much as Max or Darnell improved, he'd be an NBA all star.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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11-29-18 12:38 PM - Post#267504
In response to Jeff2sf
Of course its true. It is true of Michael Jordan who had no jump shot when he entered the league and became a deadly 3 pt shooter, or when they said he couldn't play defense and then he won multiple DPOY awards. Or of Kobe Bryant, who will tell you all the ways he developed dramatically.
Every player can improve dramatically, they may not all have the same skill level, but they can improve dramatically whether slow or fast, small or big. It's ridiculous to think someone can't improve because they are already good.
I can tell you if AJ worked nearly as hard on his game as Max or Darnell, he might well be an NBA player.
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Silver Maple
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11-29-18 12:46 PM - Post#267508
In response to PennFan10
I can tell you if AJ worked nearly as hard on his game as Max or Darnell, he might well be an NBA player.
So, I just want to make sure I understand exactly what point you're making here. Are you questioning AJ Brodeur's work ethic?
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Has Brodeur Improved?
11-29-18 12:50 PM - Post#267511
In response to Silver Maple
yeah, where are you going with this? i mean normally this sort of argument is applied to black athletes in favor of Scrappy Sam and really gets my antennae up. At least you're going in a novel, non-race-based direction with it.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
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11-29-18 01:14 PM - Post#267518
In response to Jeff2sf
The point was made that AJ was already developed when he came to Penn and the implication is that he was closer to his ceiling than most others so his improvement may not be as perceptible.
I say BS. Every player can improve dramatically. That's where I am going.
The comment on work ethic doesn't mean AJ or anyone DOESN'T Have a work ethic, just the simple reality that not all work ethics are the same. Kobe Bryant combined elite talent with unparralled work ethic. It's well documented he worked harder than every other player (you can see various interviews around team USA--Lebron credits Kobe with improving his work ethic after he played with him at the Olympics)
If you were going to tier work ethics on the most recent Penn teammates I would put Darnell and Max as 1A and 1B over the last 4 years as players who have put in the most work outside of whats required. Darnell put in extra workouts in the morning and evening after practice, on off-days,whenever, he still does. Many, many times Darnell and more recently Max, were the first players in the gym and last players to leave.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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11-29-18 03:08 PM - Post#267553
In response to PennFan10
Sorry. I didn't realize that you have a work ethic-o-meter that you can consult to see who's really pushing himself. I will defer to your obviously superior knowledge.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23379
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-29-18 03:21 PM - Post#267555
In response to Silver Maple
The sarcasm-meter is at 11.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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11-29-18 03:31 PM - Post#267557
In response to 10Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82CtZX9gmZ8
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-29-18 03:42 PM - Post#267559
In response to PennFan10
The question then is what would you recommend to AJ to develop his game?
For a quick hit, I'd focus on free throws and general shooting. I think as the next step learn a few more post moves. Brodeur has great moves to the hoop, but perhaps I'd have him work on turn-away step-back shots to the left and and to the right. An ability to hit those would turn him into the Dirk Nowitzki of the Ivies. Those are the moves that really made LeBron unguardable in the post.
If I were him, I'd also work on developing his body - but I'm not sure whether there is a lot more to do there or not. His motor is great, but a few more pounds of muscle would make him a beast in the paint.
I like his court awareness and effort quite a bit. I like his defense and I think strength is the one thing that would make him even more imposing on whoever he guards.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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11-29-18 03:45 PM - Post#267560
In response to Penndemonium
Really, AJ needs to work on his sh1tty attitude. We have empirical evidence that it's currently hovering between levels 3B and 4A, which just isn't acceptable.
(Hey AJ-- I really hope you're not reading this.)
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-29-18 04:13 PM - Post#267562
In response to Silver Maple
Sorry. I didn't realize that you have a work ethic-o-meter that you can consult to see who's really pushing himself. I will defer to your obviously superior knowledge.
I never said I have more knowledge, but if my information has offended you, I'm sorry.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32819
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-29-18 04:58 PM - Post#267569
In response to PennFan10
Well, you did give some specifics about practice and working at their games, so what is the basis you feel that Brodeur is falling short on working on his game other than the fact that his performance is not improved this year?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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11-29-18 06:00 PM - Post#267575
In response to palestra38
My perception, and its just mine based on information I have, is that there are very few "gym rats" on this team. That said, D1 basketball in the Ivy League requires a lot from each player (balancing BBall and School) and sometimes that's enough to be competitive. We don't have summer work outs like all other D1 programs. Gym Rats are going above and beyond what's required to get better.
I know Darnell was a classic Gym Rat. Max is cut from that cloth. Dev Goodman works pretty hard from what I hear. I think Mike Wang has the potential to be one of those guys also. If you are ever around the Palestra when practice finishes and happen to go in you will see the same 1-2 guys staying after practice to work. Or if you ever wander through Rockwell on an off day, early in the morning, on a weekend with no games, you will see the same couple guys putting up shots.
It's hard to play D1 Basketball and be successful. Ivy kids don't have the same resources and advantages of many other programs and yet they have to play brutal schedules. It's not easy.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Has Brodeur Improved?
11-29-18 11:24 PM - Post#267594
In response to PennFan10
Please don't let criticism prevent you from posting thoughts like this in the future. They are appreciated. The questions are understood too, but it's obvious that you are around the program more than most and wouldn't just say something like this without basis. I think your explanation makes sense and isn't exactly criticism as much as it is observational. You can't expect everyone to have the time/willingness to be a gym rat, However, as Darnell showed, that hard work can certainly pay off. Nice to hear that Devon and Wang may be putting in the extra work too.
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TheLine
Professor
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Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-30-18 09:18 AM - Post#267603
In response to Quakers03
PF10 has a point. Being a gym rat doesn't make you a great player but it does help. Some guys put in more time than others. It was the case when I was a student and could observe who showed up regularly to get in extra practice on the Hutch court reserved for the team.
I have no insight about who on the current team is a gym rat, but Dev and Antonio have added to their game based on what I've seen so far.
No surprise if Mike puts in extra effort. He has good court sense and seems to be in the right place at the right time a lot of the time, which isn't the case for most Freshmen.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-30-18 09:44 AM - Post#267606
In response to TheLine
I think AJ could benefit from using the backboard more. He tends to put his shots on the rim and a number roll off. Same thing goes for Max.
Having said that I think comparing certain players performance on this team with their performance on the team two years ago can be difficult. This team seems to be a better passing team and has better spacing, perhaps as a result of Max and AJ becoming better passers of the ball. One can say that certain guys are exercising better shot selection than in past years. Perhaps - but maybe it's just that better shots are available because the offense is moving the ball more effectively. Let's face it - both Max and AJ are above average passers. This wasn't always the case. What we've seen so far this year is many wide open looks from 3. They don't always go in, but the team is connecting from distance at a much higher % than in the past couple of years. And - they are doing it without Ryan Betley who is a very important piece of the puzzle and is not available this year.
My personal opinion is it is very much a factor of the improvement of each of our bigs in making the inside/outside game more effective. Now if a few of our players who are doing certain things better could only hit a higher % of FTs, things might really fall into place.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8248
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-30-18 10:00 AM - Post#267607
In response to TheLine
Although I do not always agree with PF10, his information has consistently proved to be reliable and I did not interpret his comment negatively.
I think it is stating the obvious to point out that putting in the work makes players better, and some guys have more time and motivation to do it than others. As spectators, we can see the potential for improvement and the results. I have heard over the years that some of our more talented guys who could benefit are not what we are calling ‘gym rats’, including some of our better players, and some bench warmers are. What I do know, is that since SD took over, this team works harder on fundamentals and has a hugely improved team ethic. I just wish this extended to FT shooting.
Goodman has clearly done the work. He is much better all around this year. Wang is a guy who came to with a high-level offensive skills to go with his talent. He’s also a work in progress defensively. He will get better and has a big upside at both ends. AJ, as we have seen recently, is impacted by the quality of the competition and the degree to which he is relied on to score in any given game. I don’t see him between games, but I see how hard he works during them. This group also has great seniors in Max and Jake who refuse to be outworked by anyone out there. They set a great example.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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11-30-18 11:53 AM - Post#267638
In response to Streamers
It was cool listening to Joe Mihalich talk on a podcast about how while they were stuck in the airport the ODU players went about their business quietly and the Penn guys were running around together having wheelchair races and the like. It all stems from the top and Steve has a great thing going.
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pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-30-18 04:27 PM - Post#267671
In response to Streamers
I agree that we should already be counting our lucky stars that AJ and others play their hearts out for Penn and that Steve has made this a very enjoyable team to watch. Basketball players, and every other student at Penn, have a lot to juggle outside of the special activity in which they already in the top .2 percent of the student body. Beside practices, weight training, and team travel, not to mention course loads, social life, and whatever else they may be doing at Penn, there can't be too much time left over. Sometimes we all forget what we had to forgo just to keep pace academically and socially when we were undergraduates at Penn. Anecdotally, when I was at Penn, I was friendly with one of our best players who wasn't playing because he had injured his right arm or right hand. We were talking, and I suggested that he use his down time to work on shooting with his left hand (because if I had his talent, I think, in theory, that I would want to do that-forgetting about the fact that I had quit two sports myself to focus on my studies). He chuckled and looked at me as though I had two heads. The obvious point is that we should all be grateful for what AJ and his teammates already do and not have expectations for them that we never met ourselves.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8248
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-30-18 05:42 PM - Post#267676
In response to pennsive
Agreed.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-30-18 08:20 PM - Post#267691
In response to Streamers
A couple of additional thoughts here. First, the level of competition impacts him, sure. But I think it is worth noting that we were significantly ahead of KState when AJ got his 2nd foul and still a little ahead when he got his third. Once he left the game, the wheels fell off. He came back in to start the second half, and my guess is that we basically played them even when he was in the game in the second half as well. Maybe Stu or somebody else has access to plus/minus stats to prove me wrong, but my guess is that we were up when AJ was on the floor, and way behind when he was out. My point is that AJ scored less (and missed a lot more) against the tougher competition, but it doesn’t matter if we are still coming out ahead.
Also, this team the last two years has probably been my favorite Penn team, and I love the passing and teamwork and grit and attitude and depth of this group. I don’t want to undermine the importance of that, or of the coaching. But it is probably meaningful that we are more or less as good as last year thus far, despite losing Bentley, Darnell, and Caleb. Literally half our core from last year. And we got our best win with Antonio sitting half the game, and Max tends to play 25 at best. The big jump for us in Pomeroy came immediately when AJ walked onto the floor as a freshman. That was the big 100 spot jump. Since then, we’ve improved more incrementally. So the truth may well be that with all of our depth there is one guy that is absolutely essential to our success — and that is AJ.
Note to the basketball gods: I am not challenging you to remove any more of our guys in order to prove (or disprove) my point. Let’s leave this hypothetical.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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12-01-18 12:18 AM - Post#267700
In response to SomeGuy
I suggest that it is the improvement of the other players we should be analyzing.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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12-23-18 12:43 AM - Post#269935
In response to UPIA1968
Anyone else we want to do this to? To say he has stepped up would be an understatement.
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Lefteroo
Senior
Posts: 398
Reg: 02-12-05
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12-23-18 01:26 AM - Post#269946
In response to Quakers03
He played a truly excellent game against New Mexico. He's been super all season.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Has Brodeur Improved?
12-23-18 04:12 PM - Post#269980
In response to Lefteroo
I was thinking the same thing as I watched the replay. This year, he has added runners and hooks to his game - and he can make them. His passing has improved dramatically. He is just a bit quicker on defense. If he can hit his FTs and jumpers, he will be a monster.
Edited by Penndemonium on 12-23-18 04:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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12-23-18 04:48 PM - Post#269983
In response to Penndemonium
Whether or no AJ is improved (at the margin he has a little)from being a first team Ivy player is not the story of the season. The story is the dramatic improvement of Dev Goodman and the emergence of two freshmen that are making a massive impact on this team despite. Wing lightly regarded as recruits by most. This team is better than they were a year ago when everyone thought they would be the same at best while Yale and Harvard would win the title Oenn was gifted last year through opponent injuries.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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12-23-18 05:14 PM - Post#269984
In response to PennFan10
This reads like you’re pooping on aj. Where was anyone saying anything about Bryce mike or dev?
But sometimes you just need to laud the best player. Don’t chase the story/narrative. We win because of aj. We win because of most of our other players too. But aj most important
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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12-23-18 05:27 PM - Post#269985
In response to Jeff2sf
Just trying to point out where our biggest improvements have come from. AJ is and has been AJ. He is not dramticallly improves from the first team Ivy and first team Big 5 that he is. That’s not pooping. It’s a good thing. Our team is better for those other reasons.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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12-23-18 07:45 PM - Post#269988
In response to PennFan10
It is stunning to watch this team play. They handled intense pressure from New Mexico well. While NM wasn't the best coached team I've seen, they had athletic players with skills. Their big men were a handful. Most Penn teams would have caved against the pressure at some point. Our guys missed tons of makeable shots, made mistakes, and had a few defensive lapses (though they were overall good on D). They just kept their head down and kept plugging away. They were always composed and focused on the job at hand. You can't count on all of the bounces going their way, but you can count on them to not beat themselves.
As people have pointed out, Goodman, Wang, and Washington have been surprises. So has Silpe. Woods has played without fear and is a nice anchor on D.
I have been very cautious about Simmons many times on this board. Against NM, I saw that Simmons is almost ready to really contribute. His body looks far stronger. He could make a difference at PF in the future.
Jackson Donahue hit some important shots, but he still bums me out with his shot selection. He hit two great ones, then took one of his instant-offense off-the-dribble long distance threes. He is a very good shooter when taking open shots created by our offense - possibly our best. He is quite a poor shooter when he tries to create his own shot. I don't want shooters to be afraid to take a shot, but I can't celebrate the fact that he is the only player on an efficient team offense that is simply taking ill-advised shots. I wish he would give Steph Curry his unlimited green light back.
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