UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1117
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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12-12-18 10:00 PM - Post#268947
Consider these facts about Penn's performance.
1. We used to complain about AJ's performance against double teams. No more. He and Max know how to pass.
2. How will Penn overcome the loss of Betley and Caleb Wood? They are now 25th in the country in making 3's. Everybody is hitting them.
3. Without Foreman or Jalani Williams who is the point guard. Devon is KP 108 and Jake is 120.
Oh yeah! Why did we hire that over-the-hill mediocracy? Well, it doesn't matter because Penn can never compete with Harvard, Yale or the Pussies, let alone the Villanova's of the world.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-12-18 10:02 PM - Post#268948
In response to UPIA1968
3. Without Foreman or Jalani Williams who is the point guard. Devon is KP 108 and Jake is 120.
AJ and to a lesser extent Max are the closest things we have to true points.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1117
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-12-18 10:26 PM - Post#268953
In response to penn nation
Lest someone assume that my sarcastic remarks about Penn's ability to stand up to HYP this is what I wrote just a year ago. I knew that Steve D was competent but had little appreciation for his greatness.
November 2017 In summary, the team is marginally better but nowhere near ready to compete for a title. Should Williams contribute, that would make a difference. So would the emergence of Scott, should he suddenly catch fire. But nothing in seven games indicates that. You may remember that Matt showed a nose for the ball even as a raw freshman. I don't see that with Scott except that one put back against Navy.
To the good the defense is way better. To the bad, free throw shooting is awful. More importantly, there is nothing so far to indicate that this recruiting class will lift the program.
It is interesting to note that of the two high caliber players added since Steve took over, AJ had a high rating while Ryan was an average looking recruit. With this year's disappointments, so far, concerning the frosh, it appears that the program's chances depend on getting some more overachievers like Betley more than getting a high potential recruit or two each year. Sadly Mike J. points out that such a pipeline is destined for mediocrity not championships, especially in the now more competitive league.
As to Mike James talent formula. This year Penn has three high caliber recruits in AJ, Mike and Jake. Plus Penn has four mid-caliber recruits who contribute, including one, Antonio who is performing at a very high level. Next year the numbers will be three high-levels and five mid-calibers to include one returning second-team all ivy. Oh, remember that there are only five players and one ball on the court at any time. I'm sure Mike J. would agree that that is more than enough talent to contend. I'm sure he would also acknowledge that having them play together is also worth at least one high-level recruit. How did Villanova win it all last year and how did Penn win the Ivies? It wasn't pure talent. I'll start with Jay Wright or Steve Donahue and then worry about talent, especially if I know they will be picking the talent. That is what Franny did so well. This administration looks even better. I do give Jay the nod given his sartorial splendor, however.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-12-18 10:43 PM - Post#268957
In response to UPIA1968
You know who leads the Ivy in total assists? AJ Brodeur.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-12-18 11:12 PM - Post#268959
In response to SomeGuy
Although you'll want to be sitting down if checking out Washington's A/TO ratio.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 6997
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-13-18 12:58 AM - Post#268968
In response to UPIA1968
How did Villanova win it all last year and how did Penn win the Ivies? It wasn't pure talent.
Although having four NBA first round draftees on your roster does help do the former.
Wright’s a great coach who has figured out how to recruit to his approach, and get his guys to play to their potential. The one-and-done route failed for him in the past (and appears to be failing again with the purported one-year wonder Quinerly, who fell into his lap, and yet can’t even crack Wright’s rotation at the moment), and he changed the type of kids he went after.
But let’s not pretend he didn’t have superior talent against every opponent his team faced last year.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-13-18 10:29 AM - Post#268993
In response to Chip Bayers
Brunson actually was a 2nd round pick of San Antonio (No 33) but he's clearly an NBA talent, irrespective of just missing the 1st round.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3765
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-13-18 11:20 AM - Post#268997
In response to Chip Bayers
Wright’s a great coach who has figured out how to recruit to his approach, and get his guys to play to their potential.
True. I think you can say the same thing about Donahue. Which is one reason I'm not overly worried about Harvard and Yale-- you can't say the same about their coaches.
Edited by Silver Maple on 12-13-18 11:21 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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12-13-18 11:43 AM - Post#268999
In response to Silver Maple
Amaker is an excellent recruiter.
Jones recruits well to his approach.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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12-13-18 11:50 AM - Post#269000
In response to TheLine
I would argue that Jones does both extremely well at this point.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3765
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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12-13-18 12:28 PM - Post#269003
In response to besnoah
I think Jones probably recruits well to his approach. I'm not convinced he's such a brilliant strategist.
As for Amaker, I think he's done a good job at bringing in highly sought after recruits. However, I continue to get the feeling that he pays more attention to what the recruiting ratings say than to putting together a cohesive group of players. I've also never been impressed with his game coaching.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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12-13-18 12:43 PM - Post#269006
In response to Silver Maple
Maybe you're right. But over the last four years he does have 2 regular season wins over the Pac-12, a tourney win over the Big XII, a 13-1 Ivy season, and has developed some pretty impressive players.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-13-18 01:11 PM - Post#269009
In response to besnoah
Until the last 1.3 seconds on Tuesday, I think I can confidently say that Amaker never coached a team as well as that Penn team was coached against Villanova.
Steve just has to work on his last play strategies. But man does this team consistently do the right things.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3615
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Some nice improvements 12-13-18 03:07 PM - Post#269036
In response to palestra38
Hey guys - I think Coach Donahue is brilliant and love the job he has done.
That said, it doesn't mean other guys can't coach and some of the above is just silly. Jones has had his team in the top half of the Ivy's FOREVER and more recently he has recruited some VERY good guys who were both highly ranked or under the radar who are very good (Oni wasn't ranked by any service). He also had two very good teams, one of which won first round NCAA game and looked very good doing it.
Amaker has out-recruited everyone by a very wide margin for sure, but he had a long run of championships and back to back years of first round upset wins in the NCAAs. That is something that even our beloved Fran Dunphy couldn't even do. Let's be real... dude is a very good coach.
To say anything else is a really parochial view that makes us look small minded. I embrace other teams having good coaches so we look even better when we beat them.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 355
Reg: 03-25-09
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12-13-18 03:09 PM - Post#269037
In response to Mike Porter
I agree, Steve is a very good coach. He still owns the longest run in the tourney next to weinhauer
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-13-18 03:17 PM - Post#269041
In response to Mike Porter
We're not saying Amaker cannot coach (and of course, recruiting is the major duty of a college coach). But do you believe he has overperformed with his talent or underperformed? I would say the latter is closer to the truth. He has lost titles to objectively weaker Princeton and Penn squads and probably Yale too.
But it could be, as someone articulated, that his talent doesn't always play well together as a whole---whether that is a recruiting deficiency or court coaching one is subjective opinion.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1878
Reg: 11-29-04
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12-13-18 03:20 PM - Post#269042
In response to yoyo
The miracle of Donahue and the team is that they are getting good three point shooting from a team where I really only one player appears to be an objectively good shooter (Wang). They are getting very good defense from a team with mostly average defenders over the career (possible exceptions of Woods and Brodeur). They are getting high assist rates from players who showed no promise in this area two years ago. They are out-rebounding teams where they have no business doing so.
This team just knows how to play, and it is beautiful. Standing ovation to Donahue and the players.
Jones and Amaker are clearly very good coaches overall. Donahue is in very unusual territory in terms of making the whole better than the sum of parts. This is a special season it is not a knock on the other coaches to think we have an edge in coaching this year.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Some nice improvements 12-13-18 03:21 PM - Post#269043
In response to palestra38
feels like naval gazing to parse whether he's over or under recruited his talent. Do we then have to solve for injuries?
He wins leagues, he wins tourney games. He's good. I wouldn't give a crap how good Steve was at drawing up ATO's if he was recruiting at a D3 level.
Steve is good.
James Jones is good.
It's a different Ivy world than when we were first fans.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Some nice improvements 12-13-18 03:33 PM - Post#269048
In response to Jeff2sf
I thought you believed injuries were part of talent
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3615
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-13-18 03:35 PM - Post#269049
In response to palestra38
HAHA, while I agree more with Jeff on this (basically what I was saying), that is well played P38!
Forgot about that one. How long have we all posted on this board again? Lol...
P.S. P38, I saw you got some face time in the crowd shots against Nova.
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