SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-06-19 06:03 PM - Post#271554
We were kind of an iron 6 down the stretch yesterday. And when Max needed a rest, we played 4 guards. May just be Wang’s ankle, but it surprised me a little and left me wondering whether we will see more 4 guard during the Ivy season. My preference is to stick to the 2 big lineup almost exclusively. May be raising a false issue, but maybe Jeff will jump in to argue for 4 guards.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Rotation
01-07-19 09:53 AM - Post#271601
In response to SomeGuy
First off, when you're down to 6 people you trust, there aren't really any good options. This isn't the 1970s, you generally can't win with 6 players. So there are some things I love with 4 guards and AJ (SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACIIIIIIII IIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGG GGG) but these arguably aren't the right four guards when two of them are jake and dev from a height perspective and it asks a lot of Bryce, who while he will be ready for it eventually, probably doesn't have the heft to play 4 (Antonio can slide to 3 without missing too many beats). It also leaves them no margin for error as they are basically our only four guards. I would much prefer to invest the time in Jarrod or Eddie and I feel like if you can trust Eddie to play against Villanova, you can steal a few minutes with him subbing for Max.
But if it's not bleedingly obvious that Mike Wang is our 2nd best player by now, it never will be to you all. Everything flows better with Mike being our 4 than any other combination. Our 3 game losing streak correlates directly with Mike's ankle. We were beating Toledo before getting blown out after Mike left the game. We lose to an 0-12 team with Mike out. We lose a heartbreaker to Princeton with a half-speed Mike. In fact, we all assumed (or should have assumed) that losing Ryan Betley would torpedo our season. We'd struggle to get to the 4 seed. The fact we were top 100, that we markedly improved while losing such a critical piece has to be largely attributed to Mike. Everything else was there before, but being able to have a 6'10 efficiently bomb shots is bananas. And yet some people want the glue guy to start.
It's the Mike-onomy, stupid.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8220
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: otation
01-07-19 11:20 AM - Post#271608
In response to Jeff2sf
But if it's not bleedingly obvious that Mike Wang is our 2nd best player by now, it never will be to you all.
In fact, we all assumed (or should have assumed) that losing Ryan Betley would torpedo our season.
I think we all agree Mike is very important to this team, but the claim that he is our 2nd best (i.e. most valuable) player right now is debatable. I would nominate Woods for that distinction given all the ways he contributes. Between drawing all the hardest defensive assignments and bring up the ball in key situations and the ability to create in a way nobody else can on this club.
The main reason losing Ryan has not torpedoed this team is that Bryce has stepped into that very role pretty effectively - a pleasant surprise to me after watching his first few games.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-07-19 11:24 AM - Post#271609
In response to Streamers
I could see Woods as 2, for sure. But ultimately his efficiency is down and 100 is a pretty ordinary ORAT and his defense just isn't quite good enough to hold down the 2nd spot.
And I like Bryce, I do. I even dedicated a thread to him. But, no, Mike's the guy. Mike is doing things on offense we only hoped AJ would do. Is his defense below average? Sure, but it doesn't matter as much as offense and of course his offense is just so, so superior.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8220
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-07-19 11:45 AM - Post#271618
In response to Jeff2sf
As to Bryce, all I meant is that he has softened the blow of losing Betley - not where he ranks on the team.
I do think you are underrating Woods' defense though.
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JadwinGeorge
Senior
Posts: 357
Age: 75
Reg: 12-04-15
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01-07-19 11:50 AM - Post#271620
In response to Streamers
FWIW from a Tiger perspective, Wang scares the bejeezus out of me. No one else (other than AJ) is close. If he is at full steam your team is a lot better.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-07-19 11:55 AM - Post#271622
In response to Streamers
As to Bryce, all I meant is that he has softened the blow of losing Betley - not where he ranks on the team.
I do think you are underrating Woods' defense though.
No, man, not at all. The fact that I'm willing to consider Antonio as the 2nd best player despite a very ordinary 100 ORat means I know that he's very good at that. But individual defense is only worth, what, 30%? 40% at the very most, of a person's contribution? I think we need to stop right there and gain agreement on that point. It's not as simple as offense/defense is 50/50, especially for non-centers. I suspect that's the mistake too many people on here are making.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8220
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-07-19 01:26 PM - Post#271656
In response to Jeff2sf
OK, let's leave it there.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-07-19 02:33 PM - Post#271678
In response to Streamers
I'm in agreement that we need Wang healthy to win. After we lost Jelani and Ryan to injuries, we still were able to beat Villanova and Miami with our iron 7. Then we were without Max but still able to win at New Mexico with an iron 6. We even led at Toledo with that same iron 6, but losing Mike on top of those other injuries proved too much. We weren't even able to beat Monmouth with only 5 of our top 9 healthy. But thanks to the Ivy League tournament, these games aren't as serious as they were a few years ago. We can go 0-for-January, get healthy, and still win the league. I'm hopeful that Mike will be healthy for this Saturday's rematch, but even if he isn't it's not the end of the season like it might have been a few years ago.
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10Q
Professor
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Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-07-19 02:54 PM - Post#271688
In response to 13otto
Yeah really. Who cares about beating Princeton. We have the tournament.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2137
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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01-07-19 04:35 PM - Post#271711
In response to 10Q
Yeah really. Who cares about beating Princeton. We have the tournament.
Personally, I think the road to the tournament gets more difficult if they sweep us.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: otation
01-07-19 09:31 PM - Post#271732
In response to Jeff2sf
Just to be clear, Mike’s the guy who disappeared when we went iron 6 down the stretch. I would prefer not to see that again.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-07-19 09:35 PM - Post#271734
In response to SomeGuy
yes, i answered your question about the iron 6 and 4 guards given you don't have mike and then pivoted.
if we're at an iron 6, we don't have many good options. expand to jarrod, 4 guards, whatevs.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2137
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: otation
01-08-19 02:15 PM - Post#271776
In response to SomeGuy
Just to be clear, Mike’s the guy who disappeared when we went iron 6 down the stretch. I would prefer not to see that again.
I was wondering what happened. His ankle must have been an issue, although I didn't notice him tweaking it again. Could also have been precautionary.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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01-08-19 02:53 PM - Post#271777
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Donahue's comments from The DP:
Notably present on the court for the Red and Blue was the forward duo of senior Max Rothschild and freshman Michael Wang, who both missed the team's last game due to injuries.
Rothschild put up three points, six rebounds, and three assists in his return, while a still-recovering Wang played less than usual and finished with four points and another six boards.
"I thought Max was almost 100 percent but Michael hadn't played in a while," Donahue said. "Not that he wasn't trying, but it's difficult for a freshman that hasn't played in 10 days to come out and help us."
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2137
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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01-08-19 04:40 PM - Post#271788
In response to PennFan10
Donahue's comments from The DP:
Notably present on the court for the Red and Blue was the forward duo of senior Max Rothschild and freshman Michael Wang, who both missed the team's last game due to injuries.
Rothschild put up three points, six rebounds, and three assists in his return, while a still-recovering Wang played less than usual and finished with four points and another six boards.
"I thought Max was almost 100 percent but Michael hadn't played in a while," Donahue said. "Not that he wasn't trying, but it's difficult for a freshman that hasn't played in 10 days to come out and help us."
Coach knows his team better than I do, but I am still of the opinion that Wang should've been out there in the second half. I don't think he really had enough of a run to find his rhythm, and more time might have helped. He's someone the defense has to account for even if his shot's not falling, given how good a passer he is. That would have helped our spacing.
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