UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1117
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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01-12-19 05:15 PM - Post#272316
Prior to Mike's injury, Penn was 10-2 and ahead of Toledo on the road. Since they are 0-4, including the ugliest loss of the Donahue era. Their three-point shooting has fallen below 30% despite Brice's continuing to shoot above 40%.
This is what the experience has taught us. Donahue is playing only eight players despite the team's poor offense, indicating that the bench beyond the three that are getting time has little worth. That includes several players like Simmons who were supposed to help this year. This suggests that the last two years of recruiting have produced two players, Wang and Washington from 2018 and nothing from 2017 save the potential from J. Williams still hurt. Clearly, the team needs an infusion of talent from next year's class.
Prior to Mike's departure, the two point guards were playing well. Since then, they have reverted to mediocracy. Today they produced only 7 points, although their assist to TO ratio improved to 4-0.
Most importantly Mike Wang has gotten little time the last two games. That is alarming on a team with limited scoring ability, especially from three. Either he is hurt and Steve is easing him back or he is not as good as we thought he was. Let's hope it is the ankle.
This leaves us with a team that plays good D but shoots poorly and can't make free throws. That makes Penn clearly a worse team than last year, clearly not an Ivy contender, just hoping to sneak into the tournament. Put differently, last year's championship was simply an anomaly in a more gradual improvement process that will, we hope, mature next year with the return of Betley and the addition of more young talent.
As to this year, I continue to hope they will get hot. But rationally I will be watching Wang and Washington's play and will be praying that one or two of the other young players will find a way to contribute. Progress along those lines should get Penn to the tournament where a blue snow could fall. Barring that event, we will at least have taken a tangible step towards real contention next year.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12480
Reg: 12-07-04
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The Wang Factor 01-12-19 05:21 PM - Post#272319
In response to UPIA1968
They didn’t just forget how to play...Wang is obviously still hurt and Mitch knows how to defend us. But the lack of depth is absolutely alarming. With Jake and Tony struggling with fouls they have NOTHING. It was very apparent today. What happened to Eddie? Still no Tyler? At the end of the day it’s all about Wang. Man this sucks.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 6997
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-12-19 05:25 PM - Post#272320
In response to UPIA1968
The “maybe Wang isn’t good†hot take here is truly insane.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8141
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-12-19 07:50 PM - Post#272344
In response to Chip Bayers
We heard Scott had the flu and Tyler had a boot on.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1117
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-12-19 08:54 PM - Post#272354
In response to Chip Bayers
I can think of only two reasons why Wang got only two points in a critical game today. Either he is hurt or he is less of an offensive wiz than we think he is. What is your explanation of his no show today after being cleared as healthy?
I hope it is just a freshman day off that we will laugh about next year. I notice, however, that Bryce had another quietly competent day. 3-7 from three and more aggressiveness than we have seen before.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 6997
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-12-19 08:59 PM - Post#272356
In response to UPIA1968
I can think of only two reasons why Wang got only two points in a critical game today. Either he is hurt or he is less of an offensive wiz than we think he is. What is your explanation of his no show today after being cleared as healthy?
Small sample size of two games vs. larger sample size of 12 games, coupled with knowledge of what happened in Toledo game ... this really isn’t very hard, and to use the small sample to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-12-19 09:49 PM - Post#272386
In response to Chip Bayers
My take on this is somewhere between you guys. I think Wang has a good chance to be an All-Ivy player down the line. However, I think it is possible that, at least for now, his game matches up best against more athletic opponents. That may not be anybody in the Ivy. Maybe Yale and Brown. Definitely not Princeton.
To my eye, his ankle was not hindering him today. He looked like he was moving Free and easy. That was not the case last week.
I also think that conference play is a different beast, and some of what you see is more thoughtful game planning. I think OOC teams know who our scorers are, but pay less attention to tendencies. Princeton knows what we do, and i’m Sure put in the work to know what Wang does. He’ll adjust, but it may take time.
One coaching thing is seeing if we can find a way to better control the switches. Cannady hit 4 field goals today. Half of them were when a switch left Wang guarding him on the perimeter.
That’s what I have to say about Wang. On the analysis of the game generally, I think we outplayed them in a lot of ways today. So i’m Not sure we can draw the conclusions UPIA draws about the offense. We had a lot of good shots that rimmed out, both inside and out. The one place we obviously got outplayed both games is on the boards. I just don’t like the small lineup against Princeton. Yes, a guard can defend Desrosiers. But we weren’t getting an offensive advantage from it, and we were getting killed on the boards.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2125
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 02:44 AM - Post#272416
In response to SomeGuy
I agree with you regarding the four out, one big lineup. A team like Princeton will hunt for the defensive mismatch they can exploit when we play that lineup, and they are very good at going back to it repeatedly until we make an adjustment. I thought Woods could deal with Stephens strength-wise, but he just gave up a bit too much height in the post to be able to challenge Stephens' shot. And Desrosiers or Much on silpe in the post is a losing proposition for us.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 07:39 AM - Post#272422
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Anyone who actually watched the game and had seen the earlier pre-Toledo games can see that Wang has nothing close to the mobility he had. He simply is not close to 100%. To suggest he isn't as good as we thought (based on performance) is completely ridiculous. You don't play at a high level against high level opposition but cannot play against Ivy teams who "know" how to defense him (he is a freshman for goodness sake--no one in the league has defensed him in the past). A high ankle sprain is not something that you can just make go away in a matter of 2-3 weeks. As much as I would like us to win the Big 5, he shouldn't play the next 2 weeks.
BTW, Wang didn't make Brodeur and Goodman miss 70% of their layups. That is what cost us this game.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23199
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-19 08:00 AM - Post#272426
In response to palestra38
When did we stop knowing how to make layups? Every layup is a low percentage shot it seems.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 586
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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01-13-19 08:01 AM - Post#272427
In response to 10Q
AJ was dreadful
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8141
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-19 10:17 AM - Post#272439
In response to Charlie Fog
Just look at the rebounding numbers if you want to see the impact of a high ankle sprain.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 12:18 PM - Post#272453
In response to palestra38
To push back on this a little bit, why do you think Ugonna Onyekwe played better OOC, and particularly against more athletic competition? How about Matt Morgan, who has averaged more than 20% fewer PPG in conference the last two years? Or Miye Oni, who averages significantly fewer point in conference each year, despite being an NBA prospect. These are all guys who play better against more athletic competition. Makai Mason did it too. And it’s a small sample size still, but Harvard certainly looked better against big conference schools this OOC than they did against Dartmouth last night.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 12:44 PM - Post#272454
In response to SomeGuy
I'm guessing the answer in part is that the more athletic OOC teams probably figured they did not need to double any Ivy players. Within the league, doubling the key players is a far more common sight.
To push back on this a little bit, why do you think Ugonna Onyekwe played better OOC, and particularly against more athletic competition? How about Matt Morgan, who has averaged more than 20% fewer PPG in conference the last two years? Or Miye Oni, who averages significantly fewer point in conference each year, despite being an NBA prospect. These are all guys who play better against more athletic competition. Makai Mason did it too. And it’s a small sample size still, but Harvard certainly looked better against big conference schools this OOC than they did against Dartmouth last night.
Edited by penn nation on 01-13-19 12:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 12:48 PM - Post#272455
In response to palestra38
BTW, Wang didn't make Brodeur and Goodman miss 70% of their layups. That is what cost us this game.
We just don't have any strong finishers currently out there. Or any consistent 3 point shooters besides Washington. And mostly poor FT shooting across the board.
Wang (when healthy) and Betley are both strong here, and Williams seems like a pretty decent finisher as well.
Tough to put so much pressure on Wang, as I mentioned not so long ago--without those other key players we really need him to perform to capabilities for the team to do well.
Edited by penn nation on 01-13-19 12:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 01:07 PM - Post#272458
In response to penn nation
On the balls rimming out, some of that was just bad luck, IMO. But I also think we played tight, which explains some of the fumbled balls and missed shots in close. I commented to my son as we came out for the second half that I didn’t like the energy level. It seemed like we didn’t have the same bounce we usually do. While starting 0-2 ups the pressure in a sense, now it is a different type of pressure. And hopefully it will be more productive pressure.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 02:21 PM - Post#272462
In response to penn nation
You cannot make that statement until the guy plays some Ivy ball. As a freshman who got hurt prior to the Ivy season, the answer is right before your eyes. He had no spring---when he tried a 3, he flung it up. He'll be fine when healthy.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1117
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: The Wang Factor 01-13-19 10:15 PM - Post#272495
In response to palestra38
There is another explanation for Wang's troubles in this game. There is now enough film available to know how to play him. As with any player, continuous adaptation and improvement are necessary to sustain stardom. Let's see if his healing and some additional coaching will teach him how to overcome such over-plays.
As this board has pointed out, AJ has not sufficiently learned to go left to overcome the overplays to his right. It showed in the second half on Saturday. Nor has he learned to shoot free throws. Marvelous player but is now struggling with his limitations.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1878
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-14-19 02:09 AM - Post#272510
In response to UPIA1968
I do think it made a difference that Ivy teams scout Penn much harder.
A key for us is that Wang hasn't shot well since coming back. That could be tied to his ankle sprain and getting his fitness and touch back. It also could have been Freshman volatility and good defense. I really don't know.
Some of AJ's flip shots are not exactly easy shots. Even though they are only 6 feet out, he is throwing them sideways and without much arc. He made them against Villanova, but has clearly been missing a lot in other games. I don't mind him taking them, b/c his aggression overall helps the team.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-14-19 09:13 AM - Post#272514
In response to Penndemonium
Sorry, the suggestion that teams with lower academic standards don't work as hard in scouting us is (to put it mildly) ridiculous.
If you can't tell the difference in Wang's mobility and lift pre and post-injury, you just haven't been watching him. He was a shell of his former athletic ability on Saturday.
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