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Username Post: Temple        (Topic#22494)
Charlie Fog 
Masters Student
Posts: 586

Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
01-20-19 08:04 AM - Post#273148    
    In response to The Grape King

From the Temple board

"But what gifts did Penn give the masterful Fran as a going away gift? Should be good since he handed them a Big 5 championship and our season."

lol

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Temple
01-20-19 08:55 AM - Post#273150    
    In response to The Grape King

It was probably more like a couple of hundred.

But they all were over 40.

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
01-20-19 10:20 AM - Post#273154    
    In response to palestra38

I met two Penn students at the game.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Temple
01-20-19 10:29 AM - Post#273156    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:
  • palestra38 Said:
Because I know you guys love this stuff, here is the Temple message board. Hint: They are KILLING Dunph.

https://247sports.com/college/temple/Board/ Temple-...



Bless your heart. You read my mind.



I think they are right to question Dunph and here is what I mean. On the plus side, he had them attacking Devon and AJ to get them in foul trouble and took Woods largely out of the game offensively. But... they went a little to far with it and abandoned nearly all ball movement allowing SD to adjust. Fran also knew Penn would be vulnerable to the press and waited too long to go to it IMHO. They also did not put Penn on the line in the final 2 minutes to exploit the weakness there.

BTW, anyone notice AJ scored with his left hand yesterday?

One other thing - given how little they used Max, I get the sense his back is not improving. Bad news. We are going to be seeing a lot more of Kuba.


 
Charlie Fog 
Masters Student
Posts: 586

Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
01-20-19 10:37 AM - Post#273157    
    In response to Streamers

The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news.

 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Temple
01-20-19 10:58 AM - Post#273158    
    In response to Streamers

  • Streamers Said:


BTW, anyone notice AJ scored with his left hand yesterday?





Yes, and he was setting up on the left side of the basket fairly often as well. When AJ scored with the left, I pointed it out to P38 who replied that he's been doing it more lately. I don't know, maybe, but the fact that he has the confidence to try is important. He still scoops with the right from the left side which leaves the ball exposed unless the defender is behind him. If the defender sits on his right hand and overplays, AJ will have a free left hand to finish his move.

 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
Temple
01-20-19 11:05 AM - Post#273160    
    In response to Charlie Fog

  • Charlie Fog Said:
The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news.



I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'd like to see more before saying we're better off that way. Beside the four straight threes in the first half, he had a steal when he stuck his hand behind him in the passing lane and made a beautiful backwards, over the head assist to Devon. His second half was less productive obviously, so we'll see what he really has against St. Joe's before Steve shortens his bench again for the remaining league games.

By the way, there was not a sniff for Jackson Donahue yesterday. If Kuba's outside shot is for real, JD sliding another notch on the depth chart could be an extra bonus.

 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 12480

Reg: 12-07-04
Re: Temple
01-20-19 11:37 AM - Post#273162    
    In response to The Grape King

First of all, you’re not the fan I was referencing but glad I touched a nerve. In even our darkest moments with some truly BAD coaches, the personal vitriol never got anywhere close to what that thread looked like. It was indeed PATHETIC. Sadly, I will still be rooting for them because I respect Fran so much. I can’t wait to see how high Temple soars without him....

As for AJ and his left, thank God. I mean, when the defender overplays you so much that you have no choice, it’s kind of your only play, but he did it on multiple occasions. Watching with my father in law who doesn’t watch much he said “why doesn’t he just turn around and use his left hand underhanded. Isn’t he tall enough?” Yes. Yes he is. And it wasn’t the right hand finish either. If he can use that as a weapon it will open up SO much more.

 
The Grape King 
Freshman
Posts: 20

Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 12-11-18
Re: Temple
01-20-19 02:07 PM - Post#273166    
    In response to Quakers03

Things are so personal with Fran because he coaches gutless teams that quit on him and each other and play with no heart. He hasn't spent the last 5 years mostly losing because he hasn't had talent, he's done it because he's lost his ability to motivate and focus these kids. He admitted himself that last year's team was the deepest he ever coached, and where did he get with it? And the media drools over him like he's Coach K because he's the nicest guy in the world. I don't know the man and couldn't care less.

Penn fans are also complacent. There's not one fan base that pound for pound displays less passion in this city than yours. And don't for a second act like the lows you guys experienced after Fran are in anyway similar to this mess we're dealing with. Glenn Miller and Jerome Allen were crappy coaches who failed from the start, they didn't settle into a comfortable contract and kick their feet up as your program fell apart.

I doubt there are many people who don't have a nerve touched when they see their community insulted like that. We could go on about how no Penn fans showed up, as usual, and thank god that your students didn't show up to unveil rollouts with glaring errors (you Ivy folks not so bright without the biased standardized testing process?). But, we don't. Most people have fine things to say about your program. I assumed you'd have bigger things to talk about after winning a Big 5 title for the first time in almost 20 years.

Edited by The Grape King on 01-20-19 02:13 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Temple
01-20-19 02:11 PM - Post#273169    
    In response to Charlie Fog

  • Charlie Fog Said:
The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news.


Depends on whether you think Kuba can channel Sam Jones again and you are OK with getting crushed on the offensive boards.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Temple
01-20-19 02:33 PM - Post#273171    
    In response to The Grape King

Dear Grape:

Now you have touched a nerve. I don't know how much of this board you have read, but we lament all the time how thin the Quaker fan base is among anyone who is not a baby-boomer. This board is populated mostly with old farts who remember the passion of the fan base in the 60's and 70's and some who were around for the dominant 90's and early 00's teams when you could not get a seat for Princeton and Big5 games.

If you think the basketball support is pitiful, you should see what our football games are like.

I have to admit I was impressed by the turnout and the atmosphere at the LC yesterday when I arrived, given the weather and such. The fact that they keep the ticket prices reasonable also helps (save for the parking which costs as much as 2 tickets.)

As for Fran, I understand the frustration. At Penn, he had many teams that we felt could have gone farther than they did had he made better in-game decisions. Despite this, we all love him because he consistently recruited strong teams and ran a highly respected program that educated and developed his players year in and year out. In this sense, the Big 5 is really fortunate to have had guys like Fran, Wright, Martelli, and now Donahue around for so long who respect the game asnd the institutions they work for.

You may be right to say the Owls did some things yesterday that I do not expect from Dunphy teams. Fran must be very frustrating for those who loved his predecessor; but try to look at his tenure in its entirety, not just the frustrating losses.

Please do not for a minute compare it to the unmitigated disaster that was the Miller-Allen period. If you do, you have no clue how bad that was.

 
Mike Porter 
Postdoc
Posts: 3615
Mike Porter
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
01-20-19 04:31 PM - Post#273182    
    In response to Streamers

Hey Grape King,

Thanks for stopping by - kind of like when other fans pop over and I often read your Temple board.

A few thoughts for you:
- Definitely NEVER compare Dunph’s tenure at Temple to Miller or Allen at Penn if you want to have even the tiniest bit of credibility. Miller and Allen were unmitigated disasters and put Penn b-ball into the dark ages for a decade. Miller won a single championship with Dunphy’s kids and then it was a dumpster fire for 10 years. Dunphy did win multiple championships with his own kids.
- I love Dunphy being part of Philly basketball but also get the frustration of Temple fans. Obvious downtrend the last few years but more importantly while he had a great run in regular season for a long time, he just never got job done when it mattered in NCAAs. Equally feel he never made the transition to recruit well enough at AAC level.
- I also think Dunphy’s loyalty to guys like Dave Duke hurt him in recruiting. I thought Dunph should have moved on from him at Penn to be honest, so the fact that he never got a Power 5 type recruiter was a mistake.
- While I understand the frustration, the outright hate of some of the Temple fans for Dunphy is over the top. I’ve followed your board for years and while I get it, even this year when you’ve got a good squad it’s been lots of hate regardless.
- I follow all the Big 5 boards, and root for all the other teams when not playing us (and I’ve watched multiple Temple games this year and pulling for you guys), and while Nova is the worst in terms of oozing entitlement and looking down on the other schools, over the last few years Temple has been trending that way which is a shame.
- I actually think you will do damage if you can get to NCAAs and hope you guys make it.

Do hope you guys kill it in AAC and get to NCAAs, but Dunphy is gone already, no need to continue the bitter pile on, at least that’s how I see it as an outside observer.

 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
Temple
01-20-19 04:41 PM - Post#273183    
    In response to Mike Porter

Those are all great points, Mike. I'd like to add one other observation about Temple. For whatever reason, some of their guys seemed to quit on defense or lose concentration. I saw that repeatedly yesterday, especially with Rose. On offense, they had no sense of what the team was trying to do. It was almost like whoever got the ball was going to beat us on their own. It seemed as if they felt we didn't belong on the court with them. (Some of the Temple board posts echo the same thought, but as another way of blaming Dunphy, not the players.) Penn ran an offensive clinic on Temple in the second half and we defended their guards very tightly. Despite that, Rose and Alston insisted on playing one on one against us.

How much is that coaching and how much is it the kind of guys Fran has to coach? I don't know, but it appears they have shut him out. That's a shame, but I guess it is time to move on. I never thought Temple was a good fit in the first place, and I'm a little surprised Fran stayed as long as he did.

 
The Grape King 
Freshman
Posts: 20

Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 12-11-18
Re: Temple
01-20-19 04:58 PM - Post#273185    
    In response to Streamers

I'm just here to lurk and to try to get my finger closer to the pulse of the Penn fan base. I cover the Big 5 for a national hoops blog, and want to get a perspective from you guys that I can't as someone who didn't go to your school and only watches every third or fourth game.

I never did compare Fran's temple tenure to Allen/Miller, your cohort did.

Yea, Fran does a fine job developing and graduating young men and running a clean program. No one will ever have a bad thing to say about him when it comes to anything off the court. The thing is, we expect to consistently be a top 45 program. We have the facilities, the campus, the history, and the growing academic reputation to achieve that. Chaney did it under more difficult circumstances.

And if the guy just couldn't recruit at this level, which has been the case for much of his time here, that's one thing. If he was a loser, that happens; ADs misidentify coaching talent every year. But to see him coach teams that show no heart, no effort, on such a consistent basis, for him to make elementary mistakes and refuse even the most basic adjustments, that's where the personal contempt for him comes from.

I'd rather watch losers that play with heart than watch teams with some talent play gutless basketball year in and year out. Fran wastes decenttalent and good teams. That's inexcusable.

I don't know that I'd call your support "pitiful", but pound for pound something is missing. Whether it's the energy from the younger generation, a different culture on campus, I don't know. Last year, the Penn side of the Palestra crowd for our game there just looked uncomfortable with the energy Temple fans brought. But, that's fine, that's your community and your traditions. I respect them and your program. But pardon me if I'm going to defend my own community that fills half of your gym on a regular basis when I see people from a generally lethargic fan base call us "pathetic".

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
01-20-19 05:05 PM - Post#273186    
    In response to Mike Porter

  • Quote:
Equally feel he never made the transition to recruit well enough at AAC level.



Is there such a thing as “AAC level” recruiting?

The AAC is the real problem, and it’s part of the larger problem of schools sacrificing their basketball programs for football. Look at what the AAC move did to UConn, which has had it even worse than Temple. They were at the top of the old Big East recruiting pyramid—they’re struggling to be competitive in recruiting in a shittier conference.

Same thing has happened to BC and Pitt in the move from the Big East to the ACC.


 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3580

Reg: 02-15-15
Re: Temple
01-20-19 05:11 PM - Post#273188    
    In response to Streamers

  • Streamers Said:
  • Charlie Fog Said:
The way Kuba looked, I don't think that is bad news.


Depends on whether you think Kuba can channel Sam Jones again and you are OK with getting crushed on the offensive boards.



I don’t think the choice is between Kuba and Max. Different roles for different players. Yesterday SD played Jarrod as Big#2 for most of the game. He also went 10 deep. I suspect he is trying to assess where some guys are and their value. When IL resumes I would expect an iron 7 or maybe 8 again.

 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Temple
01-20-19 05:14 PM - Post#273190    
    In response to The Grape King

  • The Grape King Said:


I don't know that I'd call your support "pitiful", but pound for pound something is missing. Whether it's the energy from the younger generation, a different culture on campus, I don't know. Last year, the Penn side of the Palestra crowd for our game there just looked uncomfortable with the energy Temple fans brought. But, that's fine, that's your community and your traditions. I respect them and your program. But pardon me if I'm going to defend my own community that fills half of your gym on a regular basis when I see people from a generally lethargic fan base call us "pathetic".



Whoa, you're taking wild shots again much like your backcourt. You know nothing, NOTHING, about our community and our traditions. Sadly, neither does our current student body. Our fan base is anything but lethargic. It is aging and shrinking, but it knows our history and cherishes it. If you are covering the Big 5, take a look at its history before Villanova decided it didn't want anything to do with it and Temple jumped on the band wagon just to be like 'Nova.

As far as all those things you name that Temple has to offer, "growing academic reputation", even if true (?) isn't going to help recruit on the level you seem to think Temple belongs. They blew it by bailing out of the A10 because they thought they were too good for it. Now look what you've got. An anonymous league that is a hodgepodge of teams that have no reason to be together, no group identity, no geography, no history, no nothing.


 
The Grape King 
Freshman
Posts: 20

Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 12-11-18
Re: Temple
01-20-19 05:50 PM - Post#273192    
    In response to LyleGold

I mean, I don't know known where you've been in the decades since you graduated (I know you Penn folks don't generally stick around Philadelphia), but everything from business, to law, engineering, medicine, art, our rankings (which I believe are meaningless, but that's what affects academic reputation) have skyrocketed. I think our acceptance rate is down 10% since I started in 2012 (which, again, I dont know is necessarily a good thing; Temple's mission has always been to educate the working class, but I trust our admissions is a little more dynamic as that rate has dropped). There's no arguing our academic reputation hasn't increased.

If you don't think you have a low energy fan base, just go to other games in the city. Go to Gola and Hagan. When I'm at the Palestra, Penn fans are constantly throwing dirty looks at Temple fans who are getting into the game. Some older woman turned around to me and snarkly said "thanks" when I yelled "let's go Temple" at one point at the Palestra last year. For a crappy .500 team, we filled half your building. Penn brings BY FAR the fewest fans to Liacouras Center in the Big 5. You're going to tell me that isn't a lethargic fan base? Come on, now. And I want to remind you guys, again, that I have respect for your program and fans, but don't turn around and trash talk any other fan base in this city. You guys have something to celebrate, but it seems you all are mostly unphased by the championship.

I don't disagree with you about the AAC. I hate it. I'd rather play in a lower-level league with northeast/east coast publics than in a conference like this that has no identity. You guys are lucky that you have such a close association with 7 other schools like you do. Even Villanova is off to the midwest for every other league road game.

But to say we made a mistake leaving the A10 is absurd. Besides UMass, Rhody, and VCU, there are no similar institutions in that league that we should be associated with. Even including Saint Joe's and La Salle, that's 5 out of 14 teams. The league sank when Temple, Butler, and Xavier left. It's a one bid shell of its former self. The AAC is an immensely better position for Temple than the current A10, and it's not even close.

There is a very small minority of Temple fans that are indifferent towards the Big 5. Most love and cherish it. Our fan base is nothing like Villanova's.


 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Temple
01-20-19 06:41 PM - Post#273195    
    In response to The Grape King

No, you don't know where I've been, so I'll tell you. I came to Philly from the DC area to attend Penn and have stayed ever since. (I don't have stats, but this area is loaded with Penn alumni.) I have attended at least 90% of Penn's home games since the mid 70s and virtually all of them since becoming a season ticket holder in 1992 - the first year of Allen-Maloney. That team won 42 straight Ivy League games and the Palestra was a heated frenzy. Despite that, even then I felt it wasn't what it used to be when I was in school from 76-80. Granted, a trip to the Final Four towards the end of a decade of near total Ivy dominance at a time that ALL Big 5 games were in a sold out Palestra with a 50-50 fan split will leave a lasting impression. The main difference is that back then the student body was the core of the Penn fan base with the healthy addition of alumni of all ages. There hasn't been anything like it since, but during the Dunphy era it was pretty damn great. The students have flat out stopped coming and there are fewer of us who remember what it was like, but at least we know. I'm not convinced that you have any idea, but you seem to sum us up based on what you observe from the stands. Fine.

So Temple's US News ranking is #108. Not bad - top third. What was it a decade or twenty years ago? I know the campus has expanded and the administration has worked hard to increase name recognition, but I'm not sure how much that's going to help in recruiting the kind of athletes Temple wants. I went to grad school at Temple and was pretty impressed by the professors, but my classmates were generally lackluster.

Do you remember the A10 when Rutgers and W Va were in the league and the tournament was at the Palestra? It was a very entertaining league with natural rivalries and had a real identity. There were years that all five Big 5 teams had good chances to make the NCAAs including the three in the A10. I still think Temple basketball would be better off even in the current A10, but football makes that impossible. I remember when Temple got kicked out of Big East football, which I think was unprecedented. They joined in the first place because they thought it might lead to getting into the basketball conference in its earlier version.

Oh, and by the way, when did I trash talk your or any other fan base? Please point that out for me.

 
The Grape King 
Freshman
Posts: 20

Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 12-11-18
Re: Temple
01-20-19 08:43 PM - Post#273203    
    In response to LyleGold

I never said you did. I also never said you guys never had a good fan base. But right now, it lacks something. You're identifying it yourself. My issue is that I see on this board our fan base being called pathetic because your precious icon Fran is getting the heat he deserves. He brought you guys to your ceiling on a consistent basis, I get it. He kicked his feet up in early retirement and let the program sink under the weight of his apathy. He was only given the keys because his buddy Bill happened to be giving out the job when Chaney was rightfully pushed out.

You're simply flat wrong with your assertion that we'd be better off in the A10. Either you don't understand that league, or you're using anything you can find to talk negatively about our athletics. The A10 is a one bid league, perhaps indefinitely. We went 4-1 against the A10 this year and absolutely should have beaten VCU. Another case of Dunphy having no idea how to adjust, and we had to pull ourselves out of a 17 point first half hole.

And NONE of those A10 wins move the needle for our resume. We already have two quality wins in conference play, and have the opportunity for a couple more. We would have to get through the conference tournament to make the NCAAs in the current A10. If we finish top 4 in the AAC this year, our chances our ok, and we probably will make it if we combine that with another quality win or two. No one in the Atlantic 10 has that opportunity.

And don't confuse me for one of the A10 haters within the TU fan base, of which there are plenty; I love it. In order, I watch the Big 5, A10, and the AAC on any given night. It's fun, high energy buildings. But it's not the place for a public school with a 40,000 enrollment and an athletic budget that dwarfs probably that of all 14 members. And forget the disparity with the media deal.

Yea, 20, 30 years ago, it was perfect. Big 5 schools, north east publics, sign me up. Today, it's a gutted league suited for small private east coast schools with modest basketball expectations.

It's great that your classmates were "lackluster" whenever it was that you attended. My classmates were ambitious, hardworking award winners, many that do exceptional work with the Philadelphia community. And no, academics aren't going to be the sole factor in anyone's recruitment, but it's going to help with the overall outlook of our school (which is still getting over the commuter reputation with older generations), and it's one more factor in a race for recruits that has razor thin margins. Someone's on the fence, mom is going to put her thumb on the scale for the school that has a better academic reputation.



Edited by The Grape King on 01-20-19 08:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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