Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-21-19 10:45 PM - Post#273302
In response to The Grape King
By next year you’re going to be quite surprised at where this league is ranked.
As for Penn as a whole, take away the Wang injury stretch and two games on no sleep in the Caribbean and this 100% was the best team in the city. Whether that can pick back up or continue vs teams that know their offense I doubt, but let’s not pretend like these were flukey wins. Throwing out Penn’s record as you did does indeed dismiss those wins.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Temple
01-21-19 10:54 PM - Post#273303
In response to Quakers03
Look, if you were at the Nova and Temple games, it was obvious that the better team that night won both games. Nova almost made a flukey, miraculous comeback that would have been an injustice if they pulled it off. There was nothing flukey about any of our Big 5 wins this year. Just one more, flukey or not, and what would have seemed impossible will be reality!
I agree that the Grape guy, although basically well-informed about the present, doesn't really understand even relatively recent history and has thrown out a few clankers in this threrad.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Temple
01-21-19 11:40 PM - Post#273308
In response to LyleGold
In the interest of frankness, all of the Big Five teams lack the classic attributes of a perennial top 25 programs. In the old days when basketball was a largely eastern phenomenon, they did due to proximity. The power leagues just didn't emphasize b-ball then. So get a great coach like Litwak or Harter or Ramsey at you could get close to the top.
Today Villanova is closest to that rank, but it remains a smallish school, with a dinkly gym and without a classic recruiting pool. Yes, it is in the best league of the five, but I think its success has more to do with a great coach than the University. Keep in mind that the Massomino years were lifted by the Big East's TV innovations. Now that the power conferences have big deals, the Big East is no longer a top draw. That's why the departures of the Football schools. We will see what happens to the Cats when Jay W leaves.
As to Temple: It is a school that has made immense strides since my day in college, but it remains a mid-range academic institution, with a problematic campus and no natural recruit draw. That Chaney and Franny were successful is remarkable. If the Owls were all our Temple friend says they are, they would be in the ACC or Big Ten, not the AAC.
St. Joes has a nice campus for an Urban Catholic school and a great b-ball heritage but is moving steadily to mid-major status. Sadly, LaSalle, with its limited campus, is already there.
That leaves Penn, the good Campus, and great academics, but no scholarships and no inherent recruiting base beyond academics. I love it, but even with scholarships, it is a hard athletic sell, especially when you would have to play most league games in high-school gyms on the Ivy League Network?
So, I conclude that all the Big Five school by the very nature of their specialized Philadelphiaisms are destined to play at the edges of greatness. I remind you that the fabulous Big Five has a total of, I think, ten Final Four appearances when the real power leagues count that many or more in a decade. Okay, Franny's teams do not do well in the dance when they have to play greatness. Was he a little more clever maybe they advance another round, maybe two, but win the thing? Since the power conferences discovered B-ball only Villanova has had a legitimate shot.
I keep a picture of John Chaney, 'our John Chaney' on my fridge right below Richie Ashburn. Franny belongs in that group, as I suspect Steve does too. Our fan base knows now what bad coaching is. As we learned with Penn's hard experience, Temple will do very well to replace 'Our Franny' with a coach of the same caliber. If they do, the Owls will make the tournament sometimes and maybe advance a round or two. More than that will take some very good luck or the move to a new era that we just don't understand now. After all, there was an era when Penn was a power.
Oh, by the way. The Qwackers beat the Hooters, not due to the Hooters' lack of hustle, but because Penn now has enough athletes to beat most anybody when the three's are dropping. Next year should Betley and Williams return healthy and the Frosh produce a player or two, Penn will be good enough to beat most anybody even when the three's aren't dropping. Penn won't be that good every year, and it would still be fortunate to advance very far in the Dance - but it sure will be fun watching, just like last Saturday on North Broad Street. For that, I am more than grateful.
Now, as for Championships, what is the matter with the *&#X" Eagles, Flyers, Sixers and Phooies? They deserve the boooooooos, not the Owls on a bad night.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-22-19 12:54 AM - Post#273313
In response to UPIA1968
They really booed them??
Ivy games are now on ESPN+ FWIW. The hs gym issue is legit but this league could really rise next year. I think of the run the Missouri Valley had for a while.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Temple
01-22-19 12:55 AM - Post#273314
In response to Quakers03
Yes this is true, but do you expect a Temple fan to know much about Penn's program and to understand the depths of torture we went to perfectly? I followed Temple because of Fran, but I really couldn't tell you what St. Joe's or Lasalle did during that time period, other than that it couldn't have been that good.
Agreed that Chaney's teams had declined quite a bit too. Fran actually had a pretty good record during his tenure (including this season), though the last few seasons weren't great. We all know the story on his tournament record.
As far as the overboard comment, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think comparing Fran to Glen or Jerome is even partially fair, and it seems you don't either...hence the comment. I didn't think anything else was overboard. Our fanbase deserves criticism.
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The Grape King
Freshman
Posts: 20
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 12-11-18
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Temple
01-22-19 01:00 AM - Post#273315
In response to UPIA1968
I don't disagree that the better team won in any of the Big 5 games Penn has played this year. Also nothing flukey about either win, I agree entirely. Don't take any of what I'm saying to suggest otherwise. I have been high on this Penn team since day one.
Someone asked when this perception that Dunphy teams quit began to arise, it was the last two seasons before this one. It was just apparent night in and night out. He had the talent both of those years, claiming last year was his deepest team ever, and coached that down to .500 basketball. A lot of people said last year, well if he can get it done with this team, we'll shut up (myself included). It was a disaster from the second the team got back to Philly after winning the Charelston Classic. This year had seen a huge improvement in effort. They'd pulled off a few miracle games and didn't for a second give up on any game they played this year. Then Saturday happened.
I saw "problematic campus" somewhere referring to Temple. I fell in love with Temple because of the campus, and it's changed dramatically in the near decade since I first set foot on it. I don't know if that was a reference to the neighborhood/perceived danger of the area, or if anyone thinks there's some kind of flaw with our physical campus. I wouldn't agree with any of that.
I do agree that Villanova is lost without Jay Wright. They struck gold. That's just what it takes.
Also, don't take me saying that the Big East and AAC are higher caliber leagues than the Ivy to mean I don't understand that the Ivy is wonderful basketball league that's made huge leaps in just the last few years. I love Ivy basketball. I was in the building for Harvard clinching their share of last year's title and the conference tournament. I think it challenges the Atlantic 10 and the Missouri Valley.
Also, Quakers03, I have to disagree about how the Miller/Allen thing came up and how that whole part of the conversation went. You mentioned that you guys never had the personal hate for your coaches that underachieved, and I brought up Miller/Allen to distance the two situations. My whole point was that there were minimal similarities.
Edited by The Grape King on 01-22-19 01:12 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Temple
01-22-19 02:54 AM - Post#273320
In response to The Grape King
Thanks for feedback TGK. Always interested to see different perspectives from other fan bases and like I said, I often read the other city message boards (not as much Nova, but you know...), so good to have visitors.
In fairness to the comment about best team in Philly, while our Quakers have played very well in all 3 games and looked the part of best team, even if we ignore the crash of the 4 game losing streak, our advanced stats would have been close to Temple’s rating and still well behind Nova.
To all my Penn friends, regardless, even though St. Joe’s is banged up, I fully expect a pretty packed Palestra and a Big 5 battle. Kenpom only has us as a 3 point favorite. Let’s table the “best team in the city†stuff until at least we’re hopefully fortunate enough to win that game and preferably until we have at least one league win...
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-22-19 03:13 AM - Post#273321
In response to Mike Porter
A few other Penn thoughts from the Temple game that I didn’t get to say yet:
-While Kuba was fantastic and the obvious story off the bench, I thought that Jarrod Simmons also played quality minutes off the bench. Even in the Toledo and Monmouth games, I thought he played well defensively (so odd he played no mins against Princeton), but against Temple he seemed to have a better flow as part of the offense. If Max continues to have back problems it is crucial to get good mins from Jarrod so hopefully the sign of progress.
- After a tough stretch, Silpe and Devon were fantastic. Antonio still didn’t have the best offensive performance but did a lot of other good things. To succeed though, I think we’ll need production from 2/3 of these guys night in and night out.
- Wang still seemed to struggle scoring in the offense a little. His first few shots were off by a mile, but he hit that big 3, just missed a second, and hit some key FTs. Also made some good passes and generated 4 assists. Hopefully this starts to get him back on track and he can really find his groove again this weekend at home.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8340
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-22-19 10:05 AM - Post#273327
In response to Mike Porter
First of all, thanks to GK for outside perspective and a needed injection of youth to the board. We try and provide the perspective that comes from history. I understand Temple’s quest for big time athletic status, but it’s not realistic unless they become THE preferred place for local talent, and I do not see that happening. They can have some top-cycle years where they will make some noise in the Show, but that’s the ceiling IMHO.
I’m not buying the Penn ‘best team in th city’ stuff, even if we win Saturday. If we played Nova again on a neutral court, Penn would be at least an 7 point dog, if not more. If we had all our guys healthy, I also think we would be something like 15-2 and knocking on the top 50 door. That would be a best in the City argument.
As it is, let’s take care of business Saturday. The Palestra will be nice and full of noisy fans. I love it.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3782
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-22-19 10:29 AM - Post#273329
In response to Mike Porter
1) Antonio didn't have a brilliant game offensively, but I think he was probably the main reason Alston had a subpar game.
2) I heard no booing from the Temple fans on Saturday. They were irate, but well-mannered. I talked with a couple of guys in the mens room, and they were quite gracious.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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01-22-19 11:01 AM - Post#273330
In response to Silver Maple
1) I talked with a couple of guys in the mens room, and they were quite gracious.
This is bordering on too much information....
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Temple
01-23-19 12:38 PM - Post#273390
In response to Streamers
I’m not buying the Penn ‘best team in th city’ stuff, even if we win Saturday. If we played Nova again on a neutral court, Penn would be at least an 7 point dog, if not more. If we had all our guys healthy, I also think we would be something like 15-2 and knocking on the top 50 door. That would be a best in the City argument.
As it is, let’s take care of business Saturday. The Palestra will be nice and full of noisy fans. I love it.
Just for clarity's sake, I also don't think we're the best team in the city. We're probably third. However, we were the better team on the court and deserve to have won all of our Big Five games so far. That's different. Sometimes the team that was better on the court doesn't win. That would have been the case if Phil Booth hit his Hail Mary shot at the buzzer to force OT and then Nova went on to win. It would have felt like an injustice to me. I imagine Saints fans feel the same way right now because an undeserving team went on to win.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2215
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Temple
01-23-19 08:58 PM - Post#273427
In response to LyleGold
In the Platonic dimension where they play all of these matchups 1000 times, I doubt we would come out first in the Big 5. That being said, we are now in a situation where it's actually imaginable that we can win the Big 5 with a couple of good nights, which was not the case a few years ago.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-23-19 09:35 PM - Post#273432
In response to dperry
How many years has Penn been a Big 5 champ (whether tied or outright) and not won an Ivy title? Hope they can run the Ivy season, but it will be very tough.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21307
Reg: 12-02-04
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01-23-19 09:45 PM - Post#273433
In response to Penndemonium
In 1992 there was a 5 way tie for the Big 5 title--Penn did not win the IL that year.
Same scenario in 1981.
'77 they shared the Big 5 title with Temple, no IL title.
'63 shared with 'Nova, no IL title.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2215
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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01-23-19 10:23 PM - Post#273438
In response to penn nation
All other things being equal, I would actually say that Temple would be the most natural candidate to lead the Big 5; it has a long record of success (sixth in all-time wins, I believe?), probably the biggest natural fan base (though not necessarily the richest or most devoted) and contra UPIA1968, the campus is a great deal safer and more interesting than it used to be. I agree with UPIA that 'Nova's recent success has a lot to do with Wright (I don't agree that the gym hurts as much, though, since they have access to the Insert Bank Here Center for big games.) That being said:
1.) I'll give them credit for the success they've had in football recently, which I didn't think was possible, but I still don't think it's sustainable, and it's almost certainly not sustainable without taking a huge hit to the athletic budget (see what just came out about Connecticut's financials in this regard.) Even in Philly, which is clearly the most football-crazy town on the East Coast, Penn State just takes all of the air out of the room. The future of Temple's athletic program is going to have a lot more to do with how hoops does than with football, and I would direct resources accordingly.
2.) Unfortunately (from what I understand, anyway), Villanova succeeded in shutting Temple out of the Big East, and while I agree with GK that the American is probably a better situation than the A10 would have been, that says more about what happened to the A10 than it does about the AAC. In future, it might be possible that if the Big East starts sliding a bit, they might be willing to ignore Nova and take another big-market East Coast team; again, another reason to not put too many eggs in the football basket.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Temple
01-23-19 10:33 PM - Post#273439
In response to penn nation
In 1992 there was a 5 way tie for the Big 5 title--Penn did not win the IL that year.
1992 was during that horrible Rollie Massimino-inspired destruction of the Big 5. Nova, being superior to everyone else and not wanting to be burdened by lowering itself to our level, demanded that the City Series be cut in half and that they be allowed to play half of their games on campus. The Big 5, being held hostage by the Wildcats, claimed to have "saved" the City Series by sanctioning two official games for each school each year. Everybody except Nova still scheduled each other, but only the two official games counted in the standings. In '92, all five teams went 1-1, but they didn't play the same teams! Under that system, we played Nova every other year and they came to the Palestra every four years. I stridently called for Villanova to be thrown the hell out and to invite Drexel to join a revamped Big 5 with a true City Series.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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Re: Temple's campus
01-23-19 10:34 PM - Post#273440
In response to dperry
I acknowledge that Temple's campus is much better than it used to be. That does not make it a competitive advantage in recruiting. It ranks fourth in the Big Five and way behind most big market teams with whom it competes for talent.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Temple
01-23-19 10:43 PM - Post#273441
In response to dperry
Even in Philly, which is clearly the most football-crazy town on the East Coast, Penn State just takes all of the air out of the room.
I think Philly is a pro football town, as are all the major East Coast cities. College football just isn't that big here. Sure, Penn State will fill the Linc when they come to town, but so would Notre Dame. Big time college football is mostly about the Southeast, Texas, and the Midwest. Unless you can get into one of the big conferences based in those areas, where you'd be a mediocre to bottom dwelling team, you'll never get the revenue to balance your athletic budget. Maryland and Rutgers sold their souls to get into the Big 10 for a slice of the tv package. I wonder if the conference's dreams of huge ratings from the NY and DC markets paid off for them. I kind of doubt it.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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Re: Temple
01-24-19 09:56 PM - Post#273493
In response to UPIA1968
Villanova has won 2 of the last three national championships. They have two guys in the McDonald's All American game. A dinky gym hasn't slowed them down from becoming a dominant college team.
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