internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-02-19 10:57 PM - Post#274853
Quakers by 2
Edited by internetter on 02-02-19 11:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Tod Howard Hawks
Freshman
Posts: 64
Age: 79
Reg: 03-17-14
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02-02-19 10:58 PM - Post#274854
In response to internetter
No comment.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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 02-02-19 10:59 PM - Post#274855
In response to internetter
Why didn’t Engles draw up a three point shot for the win instead of having Stefanini take a contested midrange jumper? A winnable game which we should have closed out.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
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02-03-19 12:05 AM - Post#274867
In response to Chet Forte
Chet, you know from numerous similar situations in the past, that Engles does not call many time outs down the stretch. I hope that is because he adheres rigorously to the belief that it is advantageous to the Lions if he lets them coach themselves at the end of the game. In all fairness to Engles, I can see that being a smart strategy in certain situations such as where you have a standout one-on-one player who can go end to end quickly with only a few seconds left on the clock. Alternatively, if Engles doesn't have a reasoned endgame strategy, and simply freezes, then our Athletic Director needs to help him overcome that serious problem. Incidentally, I watched tonight's game with Penn on ESPN+ and was very impressed with the analyst, Dr. John Giannini, the former LaSalle head coach. He had great insights into what happening on the court and made a couple of constructive suggestions that some of the Columbia players might take to heart. I particularly liked what he said about Ie Ie Nweke, the Lions' freshman center who has lots of potential
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cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
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Penn
02-03-19 12:26 AM - Post#274871
In response to Chet Forte
We tried to tie because while we weren't getting 3 pt shots, Adlesh and Steffanini were getting a lot of 2 pt shots in the lane. A three pt. shot for the win would have been great, except that given the way the game had gone, it was a shot with a much lower percentage of going in.
This was the 7th game this season that we have lost by 3 pts or less. It should also be noted that if you believe KenPom, we are not projected to win another game the rest of the way.
I'm curious: what did Giovanni say that Nweke needs to learn?
Two other short takes: with the score 34-33 Penn, I saw Engles yell at his players in the huddle for the first time in two and half years.
Also, Jack Forest, our 6'5 guard recruit for next year was sitting right behind us. He loves the team, the coach, and said that once he visited Columbia, he canceled the next four campus visits. He is moving to NY early next summer to practice with the team.
Edited by cc66 on 02-03-19 12:52 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
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02-03-19 01:00 AM - Post#274877
In response to cc66
When a game is tied, you obviously wait until the clock runs down before you take the final shot. When you are losing you don't let the clock run down which is what happened tonight. Anyway, I am very glad to hear about Jack Forest.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-03-19 08:43 AM - Post#274884
In response to Columbia 37P6
Something is amiss whenso many games are being lost like this. I would have called a 30 second time out and set up a play for Adlesh to shoot a three. Running the clock down and then taking a midrange jumper for a tie? I don’t think so.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
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02-03-19 09:58 AM - Post#274889
In response to Chet Forte
cc66, in reply to your query, Dr. Giannini basically said that when Ike Nweke gets the ball near the basket he should be looking to shot from there or try to get closer and not just settle for a difficult fadeaway jump shot. Giannini seems very enthusiastic about Nweke's potential and so am I.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-03-19 10:26 AM - Post#274893
In response to Columbia 37P6
Nweke reminds me of a very good Yale F who graduated a few years ago. Around the same size and immovable down low, and a great defender and rebounder.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-03-19 10:37 AM - Post#274895
In response to Chet Forte
PS, so Penn took 27 FTs and we took 6, and Engles complimented the refs after the game?
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
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02-03-19 10:45 AM - Post#274896
In response to Chet Forte
That was Brandon Sherrod who was an inch shorter than Iweke at 6'6" 240. James Jones stationed him near the basket and Sherrod executed brilliantly. Engles is teaching Nweke to move away from the basket which makes no sense. Anyway, I have had enough misery watching our men's basketball program fall apart so I am on to watching Bob Kraft's team win another Super Bowl.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-03-19 11:32 AM - Post#274902
In response to Columbia 37P6
Correct; Brandon Sherrod, who was a terror. Nweke has that potential but should be stationed down low. He’s 240 now, will probably get even bigger and stronger, and should be stationed near the paint. Nobody on this staff knows how to coach big men. Nweke should be immovable down low. And a coach who knows how to coach big men would be able to show Tape how to stay out of foul trouble.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-03-19 12:56 PM - Post#274917
In response to Columbia 37P6
Note that this is what Sherrod became as a fifth year, and that Nweke doesn’t compare unfavorably to even that version of Sherrod. Nweke gets a higher percentage of available rebounds than Sherrod did at any point in his Yale career, shoots at a higher percentage than Sherrod did in any of his first three years, and has a higher usage rate than Sherrod ever did.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-03-19 03:26 PM - Post#274933
In response to SomeGuy
Agreed. Nweke has a huge upside but should be playing inside and not outside.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-03-19 08:35 PM - Post#274965
In response to Chet Forte
Penn made 50% of twos, C 58.5 of theirs;
C attempted 7 more; P made 25% of treys,
C 38.5; both tried the same number
Stats lie!
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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02-04-19 10:51 AM - Post#275002
In response to internetter
But those are only partial stats- other revealing numbers, including rebounds (Penn had seven more), personal fouls (Columbia was called for ten more) and free throws attempted (Penn attempted 21 more) all produced huge margins in favor of the winning UPenn team.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-04-19 11:17 AM - Post#275005
In response to AntiUngvar
The bottom line is that this was a very winnable game which slipped away. As much as I love Stefanini’s game, the key play at the end was when he stole the ball and not only failed to finish but committed a foul. That 4 point swing did it. So even though I have occasionally joined the chorus of detractors of Engles, I can’t blame that one on him. What I do fault, of course, is holding the ball for the final shot which turned out to be a contested mid-range jumper instead of calling another 30 second time out and designing a three pint play for Adlesh curling off a screen. So we keep on coming up with new and inventive ways to fail to close out winnable games.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-04-19 11:19 AM - Post#275008
In response to Chet Forte
Another spell check typo— meant three point shot, of course.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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02-04-19 12:35 PM - Post#275020
In response to Chet Forte
Stef was out there for 75 minutes this weekend in really his first, starting Ivy League back-to-back. The kid gave you everything that he had to give.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-04-19 02:02 PM - Post#275035
In response to AntiUngvar
Stefanini is our best player. What I had observed is not a knock on him. He is a warrior.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-04-19 10:44 PM - Post#275092
In response to AntiUngvar
Also to be noted, the only Lions to try more than 3 shots were the 2 guards and Nweke.Three others played more than 20 minutes.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-05-19 08:46 AM - Post#275096
In response to Chet Forte
For what it’s worth, Columbia had plenty of time to choose a play there and did so. Yes, a time out lets you get set a little more, but it also let’s the Defense settle more. The play out of a timeout presumably would have been the same.
As for a 3, with one shot, I want to take the highest percentage shot I can. It doesn’t make sense to go for the lower percentage shot when you lose if you miss. That said, when Stefanini comes off the screen, Adlesh is in the corner to that side. If Goodman hedges in to help on Stefanini, the play is for Gabe to kick it out to Adlesh. For what Columbia ran, it basically was going to come down to a 2 for Stefanini or a 3 for Adlesh. Goodman stayed home, so Stefanini shoots it.
Always interesting choices in a tight game about holding for the last shot. Giannini wanted Donahue to go for a quick shot on the prior possession and play for 2 for 1. I think that’s right in a tie game, but not with a lead. Similarly, even down 2, if i’m Columbia I don’t hold for the last shot. Even in a one possession game, if i’m down I want to extend the game. But it’s arguable, and was interesting to see the choice Engles made.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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02-05-19 10:48 AM - Post#275101
In response to internetter
Also to be noted, the only Lions to try more than 3 shots were the 2 guards and Nweke.Three others played more than 20 minutes.
Very true, and very much Engles.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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02-05-19 11:03 AM - Post#275102
In response to SomeGuy
You can't presume what could have been play called out of a timeout- and the result couldn't have been any worse. Penn's defense was certainly prepared to witness an Engles guard dominate the ball in those final moments; as has been the case so many times before, and as the Penn coaches surely pointed out during film sessions leading up to the game and on game day itself.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-05-19 11:21 AM - Post#275104
In response to AntiUngvar
I’m actually not sure that was the case. Woods, Penn’s best defender, was lying on the ground under the basket after Penn’s last offensive play, and so Penn had to scramble getting back. That left Silpe on Stefanini. It is possible that was the matchup Penn wanted anyway, but that is Penn’s third or fourth best perimeter defender guarding Columbia’s best offensive player. By spreading the floor the way they did and not calling timeout, Columbia made it difficult for Penn to choose the defensive matchups.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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Penn
02-05-19 11:30 AM - Post#275105
In response to SomeGuy
Penn may have had to scramble; but the knowledge of what an Engles team does in the final 15 seconds of every last possession game is priceless.
Edited by AntiUngvar on 02-05-19 11:31 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn
02-05-19 11:41 AM - Post#275106
In response to AntiUngvar
It also wasn’t any different from what they had done with astounding success through the last 10 minutes of the game.
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AntiUngvar
Masters Student
Posts: 530
Age: 69
Loc: New York City
Reg: 07-23-18
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Re: Penn
02-05-19 11:56 AM - Post#275108
In response to SomeGuy
You can argue with me all day, not that you require my or anyone else's encouragement, but you can't argue with the results. Would have been nice if they declared a winner during the period of time you cited; but usually they don't do that.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2973
Reg: 03-02-08
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02-05-19 01:01 PM - Post#275113
In response to AntiUngvar
The common thread running throughout all of these comments is the shared sense of frustration that so many of us share in having to suffer through so many close losses.
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cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
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02-05-19 01:09 PM - Post#275115
In response to Chet Forte
One more point on the 3 pt. shot as the closer:
Columbia had averaged 25 3 pters per game before Penn, but it could only take 13 on Saturday night. True, they made 5, but the difficulty of getting a 3 pt shot off suggests that maybe relying on one as the last option might not have been such a good idea.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-05-19 01:30 PM - Post#275118
In response to cc66
Yea, Dev was never gonna help off Adlesh on that last play. That's been Penn's calling card all year, stay on the 3pt shooters and play one on one defense, switching almost everything.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-05-19 02:36 PM - Post#275119
In response to PennFan10
Yes, and Columbia ran Stefanini off two screens, so it was Silpe switching to Brodeur switching to Woods to contest the last shot.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-05-19 02:44 PM - Post#275121
In response to SomeGuy
With limited treys, an unusually poor game by Tape, unusual foul calls difference, a 2-pt loss.
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