HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-25-19 11:08 PM - Post#278000
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Also,
Copeland 44pts, 9 assists, 7 steals
Wonder if any thought was given to Harvard frosh Kale Catchings for his incredible performance against Yale, subbing in for the injured Justin Bassey
16 pts
4 rbs
2 assists
3 steals
1 block
Harvard loses to Yale without this performance.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-26-19 01:20 AM - Post#278015
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Ellis hit the game winner v Penn not Stefanini. Point still valid though
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-26-19 01:26 AM - Post#278016
In response to bradley
Pretty sure the Harvard, Princeton and Yale fan bases are engaged as much as ever. Did you see that finish between H and Y Saturday?
Come on now. I have a feeling that you might be selling the Brooklyn Bridge next.
The interest level in finishing in first place for most Princeton and I assume Harvard fans is nothing like it would have been pre-IvyMadness as it would be the guarantee to go to the Big Dance. Probably Harvard and Princeton fans are more focused on avoiding a collapse to miss IvyMadness that be the regular season champ - sad but true.
Look at the number of responses on this forum about fourth place vs first place -- not remotely close. It is a statiscian's dream talking about the probabilities of accomplishing a great achievement of finishing 4th place in a one bid league.
There are other arguements than this one that has at least some credibility.
This is just your opinion. There is not empirical evidence that Harvard and Princeton fans are less interested in their teams now that there is an ILT. To the contrary, i think there is compelling evidence that many more people, including the fans of the leading teams, are now interested in meaningful basketball well into the Ivy season.
It’s a lot harder to believe the old guard has given up on their teams because of the ILT than to realize the IL has never been more popular and, as a league, is at it’s height from a talent and quality perspective. It’s really only a matter of time before we get a 2nd bid as a league.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-19 06:44 AM - Post#278020
In response to PennFan10
" It’s really only a matter of time before we get a 2nd bid as a league"
Well, everything but that.. The trends is towards giving the power conferences more places, not giving current 1-bid leagues more bids.
Certainly, the League is better. I don't know about more interest, since I don't see many sellouts or other indicia of that, other than posts here. And it's pretty much the same people posting here as always. But it's a good race for 4th.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-19 08:54 AM - Post#278023
In response to palestra38
Indicia?? That must be attorney-speak for ‘signs’. Looking forward to using it when I’m feeling more pompous than usual.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-19 09:08 AM - Post#278026
In response to Streamers
Hey, this is an Ivy League board....I expect people understand that word.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-26-19 10:13 AM - Post#278037
In response to PennFan10
Correct, about final bucket, my bad. Stefanini scored 7 of Columbia's final 9 points to send the game to OT and my memory must have assumed that - like Aiken - he seems to always take the last shot for Columbia (post Mike Smith's injury).
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1346
Reg: 12-08-04
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02-26-19 10:43 AM - Post#278042
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Pretty sure the Harvard, Princeton and Yale fan bases are engaged as much as ever. Did you see that finish between H and Y Saturday? There is more, not less, interest in the IL as a result of the ILT
Dartmouth and Columbia are out of any contention for the ILT or a non-NCAA post season tournament too, but they put on major efforts last weekend. Not the sign of dispirited teams without hope. I believe teams want to win, and ESPECIALLY against major rivals, no matter the record - like Yale versus Harvard, Penn versus Princeton.
The whole "the end of the regular season doesn't really matter for the teams that have clinched spots in the ILT" only makes sense if you think the ILT is the end of things. But as we've seen multiple times in the last 8 years, the Ivies can aspire to much more than that now.
I gather you are referring to the NIT and other lesser events, including “pay to playâ€. The ILT doesn’t make that possible, the team’s record does, which provides incentive to keep winning in the regular season. It can easily be argued that losing in the ILT actually reduces the team’s attraction to such a tournament because it lowers their rating. And if you are willing to pay the tournament entry fees, nearly anyone can be “invited†to some of those lesser events.
It’s really only a matter of time before we get a 2nd bid as a league.
And in the words of Ira Gershwin, in time the Rockies may crumble, Gibraltar may tumble, they're only made of clay. I admire your optimism, but it’s not borne out by any current evidence.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-26-19 11:00 AM - Post#278045
In response to sparman
The only way we get a second bid is if an unusually strong team (e.g., 14-0 Princeton or maybe Harvard next year) loses in our tournament.
I don't see us with two top 40 teams, and that's usually what it takes to secure an at large bid.
In that instance, I suspect that my hypothetical unusually strong team gets bumped from at large consideration by virtue of having lost our tournament.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-26-19 11:06 AM - Post#278047
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
We need the NCAA to expand the Tourney to 128.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-19 11:26 AM - Post#278051
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Ironically, if we were still in the RPI world, the Ivies would be in two-bid league discussion *this* year.
Four Ivies in the top 100. Yale at 44, Harvard at 57. And the Crimson is 2-3 vs. Q1 and 3-1 vs. Q2.
Regardless, Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Penn have all done enough, for different reasons, to be 14 seeds or better (and frankly 12 or 13 would be more of a fit given the strong wins). This was one of the major fears of the anti-tourney crowd... that some team would get hot for a weekend and land us in Dayton. Maybe if Cornell makes the top 4 and wins it that would be true, otherwise, none of the other six teams would likely even land on the 16 line...
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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02-26-19 11:41 AM - Post#278053
In response to mrjames
This was one of the major fears of the anti-tourney crowd... that some team would get hot for a weekend and land us in Dayton...
Such a disgrace.
https://www.courant.com/sports/college/hc-nca a-fir...
Remind me again- how much did Holy Cross pocket in NCAA $$$ from that victory?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-19 11:44 AM - Post#278054
In response to mrjames
Well, how did Penn get placed an Angstrom above Dayton last year? Underseeding is not unheard of for the Ivies.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1346
Reg: 12-08-04
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Yale UG Sports Analytics Group Playoff Odds - Men
02-26-19 11:54 AM - Post#278056
In response to Old Bear
That may be coming. But it won't be to address inequities for leagues like ours, it will be primarily to squeeze in more Big Conference losers. Like the family pet hanging around the table, we may get a few scraps they neglect to control.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-19 12:14 PM - Post#278057
In response to palestra38
Angstrom, huh. Is that part of the indicia that this is an Ivy League board? BTW I had to add indicia to my browser dictionary.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-19 12:45 PM - Post#278061
In response to palestra38
For the 13-16 lines, what matters most is the Tier I and II wins. They are huge separators at that level. Last year, neither Harvard nor Penn had any. And while I think a 15 would have been the right line for both Harvard and Penn, the lack of any Tier I and II wins made a 16 something the committee could do.
This year, Harvard and Princeton (and Penn) have those wins. And while Yale doesn’t because the NCAA is treating the win at American Airlines as neutral, it has zero bad losses and a really strong performance in a Q1 loss at Memphis.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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Yale UG Sports Analytics Group Playoff Odds - Men
02-26-19 01:31 PM - Post#278062
In response to mrjames
Ironically, if we were still in the RPI world, the Ivies would be in two-bid league discussion *this* year.
Four Ivies in the top 100. Yale at 44, Harvard at 57. And the Crimson is 2-3 vs. Q1 and 3-1 vs. Q2.
Regardless, Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Penn have all done enough, for different reasons, to be 14 seeds or better (and frankly 12 or 13 would be more of a fit given the strong wins). This was one of the major fears of the anti-tourney crowd... that some team would get hot for a weekend and land us in Dayton. Maybe if Cornell makes the top 4 and wins it that would be true, otherwise, none of the other six teams would likely even land on the 16 line...
You guys can all continue to ignore the empirical evidence but the "trend" is toward more analytics and not less. While that, for now, hasn't translated fully to the selection process, the objective criteria say the Ivy League is as strong as it ever has been and is trending up.
I think the Ivy league is like a free agent in the NBA. A player who is not a draft pick has to work harder and show more than a draft pick but eventually talent wins and he gets on a team. Jeremy Lin, John Starks, Avery Johnson...etc. If the Ivy League keeps improving it's talent level and coaching quality (which is also at an all time high) then our top teams (plural) will get wins against Tier A teams that make it impossible to leave a 2nd team out.
If the case is borderline, no question we get left at the altar. But as Mr James has said, if Penn was 12-2 in Ivy league with multiple tier A wins and Tier B wins, or if Harvard had a healthy team and got those kind of wins against their schedule, we would all be having a very different conversation this year.
Next year may actually be the year you guys all get to eat crow.
Edited by PennFan10 on 02-26-19 01:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1346
Reg: 12-08-04
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Re: Yale UG Sports Analytics Group Playoff Odds - Men
02-26-19 01:37 PM - Post#278064
In response to PennFan10
And you are ignoring the fact that the NCAA tournament is BIG $$ for the Power conferences, and they have no incentive to give up any by letting some poor wretch, not in their club, share in the bonanza if they can get more.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-26-19 01:47 PM - Post#278067
In response to sparman
Not ignoring it at all. In fact my post acknowledges the fact that an ILT team has an uphill battle to climb to be a 2nd bid. But I think the empirical evidence will have to rule the day at some point.
Taken to an improbable extreme in order to illustrate my point, if Harvard, with top 90 SOS, had gone undefeated in its non conference slate (defeating @UNC, @USF, @URI, @Northeastern etc) and then went 12-2 in the IL, losing in the championship game, I think they would be ranked in the AP top 25 and would be hard to leave out of the NCAA tournament.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe we are headed that way. We have a strong headwind, but if we are a top 10 league and consistently beat top 25 teams, the case will eventually be too compelling. And there are of plenty of big money donors on these boards with influence who will be making that case!
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-26-19 02:09 PM - Post#278073
In response to PennFan10
Re interest in the games: The first-place-race shaking Harvard win over Yale went by like a footnote. We have all kinds of convoluted tie-breaker discussions about potential 7-7 teams but not one about the tiebreakers for first place. Pre-folly, we would have had exciting possibilities for ties and playoffs with a Yale loss or two. Now, even if Princeton were to win out, nobody's even discussed who gets the first seed under what scenario, because it really doesn't matter. Yale still gets in and still gets home-court.
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