Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8141
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-19 11:45 AM - Post#276039
In response to PennFan10
I agree with your point, but I still do not understand the analogy. I have attended games at both Cameron and UNC. The only thing they had in common is that they were both full; as will be the case in NH. Full is better - conference finals in front of dinner party crowds inside 10,000 seat arenas are embarrassing.
This does not mean PW/Lee is an appropriate site. All this does this year, is put the presumptive #1 at home again without the benefits of the Palestra. Either make home court an official perk for the Mens champ, or get the best available neutral site. That list has been laid out here every recent year.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-12-19 11:51 AM - Post#276042
In response to PennFan10
As a fan I like what Harvard did to Lavietes, it sure doesn't look like the second oldest college basketball arena still in use (next to Fordham's Rose Hill gym). Have to concede that the lack of end line seating makes it look small and HS'ish for the cameras.
Jadwin should look good and large on TV, although the cameras are positioned to show the much smaller bleacher side of that facility.
As a Harvard fan, I'm hoping that the location spotlights Harvard and its graduating senior class next year. I do fear that it's a long shot however.
At least this year I can stay at Mohegan Sun and travel to New Haven for the games! Of course, my enthusiasm is reliant on my Crimson playing more like they did two weeks ago (Yale/Brown) as opposed to this past weekend (C's). Admittedly, as a guy who regrets the tournament, I certainly see how it is making this season exciting as both the regular season and the tournament are/will be competitive.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-12-19 12:04 PM - Post#276045
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
If Penn manages to make the IL Tourney and win its first round game, I would likely make the short drive from Westchester to attend the Sunday finale.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-19 12:26 PM - Post#276048
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I still have no idea why Harvard killed the new arena that was planned. It's not as though it doesn't have the money.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 12:34 PM - Post#276052
In response to Streamers
I agree with your point, but I still do not understand the analogy. I have attended games at both Cameron and UNC. The only thing they had in common is that they were both full; as will be the case in NH. Full is better - conference finals in front of dinner party crowds inside 10,000 seat arenas are embarrassing.
This does not mean PW/Lee is an appropriate site. All this does this year, is put the presumptive #1 at home again without the benefits of the Palestra. Either make home court an official perk for the Mens champ, or get the best available neutral site. That list has been laid out here every recent year.
The point is that the ILT is not for the attending public, it's for the TV viewer, which makes up a vast majority of the people who will watch the games. As such, no one will know the seating capacity at Yale vs the Palestra, much like viewers don't have a clue that there is a 13,000 seat spread between Duke and UNC. It doesn't matter, that's why they chose Yale. They are appeasing the TV market and the branding, not the attending fans of the teams.
That's also why your last points are, unfortunately, irrelevant to the discussion. Those priorities just aren't on the menu for the stakeholders.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-19 12:41 PM - Post#276053
In response to PennFan10
Of course, if that is the case, there is no reason to play the men's and women's tournament at the same site
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 12:53 PM - Post#276055
In response to palestra38
Why not? The league can brand both men and women, and ESPN may not cover one without the other.
We know the league has said that showcasing the Ivy schools, ESPN as a partner, and men/women at the same site are all priorities.
While those factors have repeatedly been announced as important, fan attendance, fairness in who hosts, and irrelevance of the 14 game league have not been mentioned as important to the decision makers.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-19 12:58 PM - Post#276057
In response to PennFan10
If TV and branding is the most important, which was your prior statement, they do not have to play at the same site--they can have it at a different Ivy site (thus, no branding issue) and if we have the deal that ESPN is broadcasting, it should make no difference that it is at a different site--they already are webcasting every Ivy game no matter the site. I know that they said they want to have the men and women together, but that is unnecessary for any purpose other than those attending, which you said is not a priority.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 01:27 PM - Post#276060
In response to palestra38
Sounds like you know more about it than me so I’ll defer to your expertise on the decision makers. All I am saying is that the League has repeatedly said publicly that men and women at same site are a priority. Hosting at IL campuses is a priority. Branding and ESPN are a priority. Neutral site, fairness to regular season champ, and number of attending fans have never been mentioned as priorities. I don’t know why and can only speculate.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 01:33 PM - Post#276061
In response to PennFan10
One observation is that ESPN wants the TV screen to look like the stadium is full. More likely to fill up the viewable part of the stadium if you have men/women together. That's one idea but pure speculation.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-19 01:37 PM - Post#276062
In response to PennFan10
You may be right---purchase of men's tickets gets you GA admission to the women's games.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-12-19 01:41 PM - Post#276063
In response to palestra38
the fact that the women don't seem to WANT it together should be the only priority that matters.
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-12-19 01:42 PM - Post#276064
In response to palestra38
In the first year women's final, ESP N & the staff urged all the fans there to move to the lower level & the lower part of that to get a camera angle that would suggest on TV that the Palestra was full,
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-12-19 01:52 PM - Post#276066
In response to penn nation
Close - I grew up in Westchester buy live in NJ now. Uh oh - am I being outed/identified?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 01:55 PM - Post#276067
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Close - I grew up in Westchester buy live in NJ now. Uh oh - am I being outed/identified?
Were you in a WaWa in NJ at 3:30am a few weeks back?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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It's trees stupid! 02-12-19 01:55 PM - Post#276069
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Invite Trump, last night he convinced the El Paso crowd that there were 10,000 in attendance in a venue that legally can hold only 6,500. Local fire officials went on record to refute him.
Similarly, he claimed that Beto O'Rourke's rally nearby was small at 200 to 300 attendees. Law enforcement report attendance at 7,000.
Things may not be what they seem - depends on your 'lens'
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-12-19 01:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23199
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-19 02:44 PM - Post#276073
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Yuge
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1150
Reg: 07-28-07
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Re: It's trees stupid! 02-12-19 03:00 PM - Post#276075
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Are you saying that the President of the United States was not telling the truth? Shame on you!
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8141
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-19 05:06 PM - Post#276083
In response to PennFan10
The point is that the ILT is not for the attending public, it's for the TV viewer, which makes up a vast majority of the people who will watch the games. As such, no one will know the seating capacity at Yale vs the Palestra, much like viewers don't have a clue that there is a 13,000 seat spread between Duke and UNC. It doesn't matter, that's why they chose Yale. They are appeasing the TV market and the branding, not the attending fans of the teams.
That's also why your last points are, unfortunately, irrelevant to the discussion. Those priorities just aren't on the menu for the stakeholders.
Again, I am not contesting your premise; but I do take issue with the stance the League is taking that says, in effect, the teams, attending fans, and the even the other students who might join the fan base are not 'stakeholders.' This idea that the League is the product as opposed to the games and the integrity of the bid is misguided, IMHO.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 05:17 PM - Post#276085
In response to Streamers
I agree. Stakeholders is probably better referenced as "decision makers".
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