HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-03-19 12:23 PM - Post#279134
In response to PennFan10
I think it’s about perspective.
Lewis has become an option for the Crimson. With Bryce’s return, Lewis is playing fewer minutes and the post is no longer the focal point of Harvard’s offense. The return of Bassey and maybe even Towns will further exacerbate that trend.
Brodeur appears to be increasing as the focus of Penn’s offense. He’s been effective and efficient, but it’s a double edged sword. With Wang and Rothschild not scoring, and with Penn’s 3 point shooting unimpressive (sans Betley) it’s Brodeur or bust at times. If he makes 2 buckets over the last 10 minutes of a game that doesn’t appear to bode well for the Quakers.
To me, it felt like Harvard succeeded and, after going up 54-46, with 6.5 minutes left, neutralized Brodeur by making him give up the ball. Thus, for the second time this season, Brodeur’s inability to finish strong was a difference maker. This includes Harvard’s dominance on the boards at the end of both games.
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digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 468
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
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03-03-19 04:32 PM - Post#279169
In response to PennFan10
And what did AJ do in the first 27 minutes of the game?
The post I was replying to was the one in which mobrien stated that Lewis completely shut down Brodeur at the end of the game. That simply didn’t happen. If anything the two bigs were even in their production. That was a tail off of AJ’s production, which is a fair observation, as the rest of the game he was the dominant force on the floor. The balance of Harvard’s team, along with Penn’s missed shots and other miscues is what sealed the deal over the last 7 minutes.
I think you misread his post. He was comparing Lewis's play in the last ten minutes of the game to the first half. If you didn't notice a difference in how Lewis played Brodeur in the last ten minutes, then we watched different games. More denial of the ball in the post, more touches outside the arc, etc. They may have played even over the last ten minutes. That's fine. If that happens, we've neutralized your best player and win the other match-ups most of the time.
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digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 468
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
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03-03-19 04:35 PM - Post#279170
In response to digamma
To my point Brodeur scored 20 points in the first 28 minutes of the game and 4 points in the last 12 minutes.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-03-19 04:45 PM - Post#279173
In response to digamma
Similar situation in first meeting
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-03-19 08:35 PM - Post#279193
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
The last thing I’ll say is the original quote was “Lewis mostly shut down Brodeur in the second halfâ€
That is simply wrong. If you want to say Brodeur didn’t score in the last 5 minutes or Lewis played him differently, or whatever you want thats ok, but my first response was to the initial post. AJ was the dominant player on the floor for the entirety of the game and Penn’s supporting cast didn’t make plays while Harvard’s did.
AJ was directly responsible for 9 of Penn’s final 18 pts (13 in the second half—he was also responsible for half of the team’s points over the whole game so he was consistent) and would have had 2-3 more assists but for Silpe and Dev missed layups and a missed 3 by Silpe.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-03-19 10:50 PM - Post#279204
In response to PennFan10
Finally done driving home from Cambridge and checked the numbers:
Game #1: Brodeur scoreless over final 11+ minutes
Game #2: Brodeur 4pts over final 12+ minutes
Brodeur was effective for roughly 30 minutes each game, but Penn seems to ride its horse into the ground. A rested Lewis must deserve some credit.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-04-19 01:21 AM - Post#279229
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Again, its a nice theory but that was not the original point. mobrien said “Chris Lewis mostly shut out Brodeur in the 2nd halfâ€. That statement is not true and has been proven to be not true. You guys then moved the goalposts on every subsequent post.
The last 6 minutes of the game Penn outscored Harvard 7-5. I am not sure anyone can claim dominance over that span.
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-04-19 01:27 AM - Post#279231
In response to PennFan10
To my point Brodeur scored 20 points in the first 28 minutes of the game and 4 points in the last 12 minutes.
Pretty unbelievable that you think what I said wasn't true and "has been proven not to be true". I can't tell if you're trolling or are just this deluded.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-04-19 01:39 AM - Post#279232
In response to mobrien
The concept was defensive dominance. Penn was trailing and mustered up a meager 6 points in the last 6+ minutes. Harvard did worse, but partly due to holding the ball deep into possessions and shooting uncharacteristically poorly on FT's.
The initial point was prefaced by the fact that Lewis did not start the second half, but that is being conveniently overlooked.
There must be a great deal of frustration as a squad touted as the pre season favorite by its fans sits 2 games under .500, hoping for a shot at 4th place. Of course they're trolling. Otherwise they wouldn't be over here on the Harvard board after the Crimson completed the sweep of the Quakers (and, for that matter, Princeton and Yale).
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-04-19 10:42 AM - Post#279242
In response to mobrien
I am not trolling. You won the game and deserved to win. Your wins against Yale were impressive. Since HVG decided to take this to a different place I will now say this: You are the likely #1 seed, which will make it all the more sweet when we back into the tourney and send you to the NIT at Yale. I will enjoy watching all of you bitch about the existence of the tourney for the next several years, citing this year’s “debacleâ€.
As far as mobrien, THIS was your quote: Good point. The difference was 1) In the second half, Lewis mostly shut down Brodeur inside and forced them to shoot it from outside, and 2) their shooters missed everything. Woods and Goodman were a combined 3 of 13 from three for them; Rio and Danilo were 6 of 8 for us.
That said, those last five minutes were beyond ugly. We had multiple chances to put the game away with one good offensive possession, and couldn't do it. Then we had multiple chances to put it away with free throws, and couldn't. Against a better opponent, we would have given the game away that way.
I guess a 21% TO rate is an acceptably bad performance for us given that we seem to be able to consistently survive up to around a 25% rate. Rio and Kirkwood both get so excited trying to push in semi-transition that they dribble into trouble. Kirkwood has been a little better at this than he has been, but he can still have problems with a loose handle.
Bryce made a nice adjustment driving more in the second half. Was able to get to the line a few times, make a layup, and then he had that dagger three that was the only bucket either team made for ... awhile.
Still, a win against a desperate Penn team when we didn't have Bassey is pretty good. Hopefully we get him back tomorrow. And who knows, maybe Towns too.
To which I replied:
If Lewis “shut down Brodeur†in the second half (AJ scored 13 of his game leading 24) then what do you call Dev Goodman’s defense on Aiken (Who scored 9 of his 12 in the second half—less than half his average). I think the bench from Harvard outplaying the bench from Penn was the difference in this game. (45% from 3 vs 27%)
That set off a flurry of subsequent reactions and reinterpretations by you guys which made completely different, and mostly true, points. You all tried to get me to react to your new points and I have done nothing but point to my original post and its reason, which is still the case.
mobrien, yes, AJ scored 4 in the last 12 minutes and 20 prior to that. So what? I could say Max played 8 minutes and guarded Lewis the whole time and Lewis never scored. Does that mean he “shut him down� Your original post was an exaggeration and caused a reaction from me to clarify. The rest is just noise. You won and deserved to win. Congratulations.
You, and your 3 posters, can have your board back. I won’t be coming here again.
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-04-19 11:05 AM - Post#279246
In response to PennFan10
It's cute that Penn fans have delusions of grandeur because of one fluky season where they actually had a winning Ivy league record, got unearned home court advantage, and barely took us down when both of our best players were hurt. I'd say see you guys in the ILT, except ... well, there's a really good chance we won't.
It's too bad because Penn is an easier matchup than Brown.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32818
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-19 11:15 AM - Post#279249
In response to mobrien
So it's fluky for Harvard to have injuries (enough with the claim of 1st place because of the subjective tie breaker) but not Penn? Show me the OOC wins Harvard has that matches even closely to Penn. Thought so.
But count me in hoping that Penn can get in and get another crack at Harvard. You won't hit the lucky shots a 3rd time after being outplayed.
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-04-19 11:38 AM - Post#279254
In response to palestra38
Harvard has lost two Ivy Player of the Year-caliber players in Towns and Aiken the last two years. Yale lost one in Mason last year. Absent those injuries, you guys probably would have been a nice third place team then. Instead, pretty much everything went your way, including getting unearned home court advantage.
Let me put it this way: if AJ had missed most of last year, Betley got hurt in the Ivy League final being hosted in Cambridge, and we'd only beaten you by 3 points, I wouldn't think my program was "back". I would think we'd gotten lucky. Which is what we're seeing this year. A team with one very good player coming back down to Earth because the rest of the roster just isn't that good.
Also, I think the statute of limitations on bragging about beating a wildly inconsistent Villanova team is coming up. Especially when Penn hasn't beaten *any* of the top three teams in the Ivies. Seriously, when was your last good win? December?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32818
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-19 11:48 AM - Post#279256
In response to mobrien
Towns played the entire season last year for Harvard and got hurt in the final. Aiken has played the entire Ivy season this year.
The loss of Betley for an entire season equals anything Harvard has lost. Add in Penn's most highly recruited guard lost for 2 seasons with ACL and there is nothing Harvard can claim in terms of victimhood.
What is not in doubt is that Harvard took a miracle to beat Penn at the Palestra after being outplayed the entire game and was outplayed for most of the game at Harvard. Have things gone Penn's way in the Ivies? No--their freshmen hit the wall. But don't exhibit too much hubris--it's been quite a while since Harvard played an NCAA game and they haven't had to overcome Jerome Allen.
But I'll be happy to mix it up with you if Penn takes care of business this weekend (which is by no means certain).
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-19 11:53 AM - Post#279257
In response to palestra38
Harvard actually has the best non-conf win in the league (@St. Mary's). It's the only Tier I-A win right now.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32818
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-19 12:00 PM - Post#279258
In response to mrjames
Aren't these things judged by the rankings and conditions at the time the games were held??
If Villanova falls off the face of the earth, it still was the highest ranked win for an Ivy team when played.
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-04-19 12:02 PM - Post#279260
In response to mrjames
And that St. Mary's win was without Aiken, Towns, or Lewis.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-19 12:05 PM - Post#279262
In response to palestra38
They aren't. They float as the season goes on as we get more data on each team.
But even at the time Villanova wasn't a Tier I-A win.
To be fair, it's really hard to have a better home win than beating St. Mary's on the road. Would need to be a Top 13 or 14ish team.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-04-19 03:10 PM - Post#279291
In response to mrjames
I think Harvard's injuries this season are being overlooked. Justin Bassey hasn't been available (except for minor minutes in 2 games) for the last 3 weekends. There are two other solid starters with significantly decreased minutes and production. Make of it what you will, but do you really think that Haskett and Forbes have performed to a level where Coach Amaker decided he needed to start playing starters 20 minutes or so?
Coach Amaker deserves to be considered for Coach of the Year considering the time missed by multiple starters and rotation players, not to mention the absences of Aiken and more so Towns.
It is an incorrect statement to say that Aiken played the entire Ivy season this year. When he did return in mid-January, he understandably took some time to acclimate as this was his competitive ball in about a year.
As a Harvard fan, I expect the Crimson and its fans are focused on winning the regular season and then qualifying for the NCAA tournament. Who we play and when we play them is irrelevant as you have to win 2 games in New Haven. Other may obsess if they wish to.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-04-19 03:27 PM - Post#279297
In response to mobrien
It's cute that Penn fans have delusions of grandeur because of one fluky season where they actually had a winning Ivy league record, got unearned home court advantage, and barely took us down when both of our best players were hurt. I'd say see you guys in the ILT, except ... well, there's a really good chance we won't.
It's too bad because Penn is an easier matchup than Brown.
This was a grade A troll job. And it will be remembered.
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