HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-04-19 06:54 PM - Post#279378
Heading into the final weekend, there is a lot of focus on the battle for 4th place, possibly at the expense of the battle for first place. Looking at this weekend from the top down you have Harvard in a tie with Yale, with Princeton a game behind.
Harvard (9-3): wins all tie-breakers with Yale and/or Princeton, having swept both. The Crimson control their destiny, facing Cornell and then Columbia on the road. These will be tough games as Cornell is fighting for its life and red hot Columbia is always a tough road trip for the Crimson. Further complicating things for Harvard are injuries (Bassey, Towns, and others) and a desire to be healthy for the tournament.
Yale (9-3): visits Penn and then Princeton. Big game for Penn (5-7), but not necessarily live or die. If on Friday Princeton loses or Harvard wins, then Saturday is meaningless for the Tigers. Thus, although Yale is on the road in two historically difficult venues, Yale could - and likely needs to - sweep the P's to enable it to move the requisite game ahead of the Crimson.
Princeton (8-4): hosts Brown Friday and Yale Saturday. Brown is playing for its life, although a loss may not be fatal as it faces off with Penn on Saturday (Cornell notwithstanding). Princeton has to beat Brown and hope that Harvard and Yale both lose Friday to retain any hope of first place. If that occurs, on Saturday Princeton would need to beat Yale and hope that Harvard loses to Columbia. Harvard/Yale are a combined 16-4 against the rest of the league. The odds of them going 0-4 this weekend is slim.
Of course, this is relevant only if one ignores the tournament or simply cares about the top seeding and thus an NIT autobid.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-04-19 07:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-04-19 08:30 PM - Post#279381
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Will Senior Night have an impact? Last weekend:
Harvard took a 6-3 lead over Princeton (5 mins) despite starting 5 seniors, none of whom usually even play: Balsa Dragovich, Weisner Perez, Tommy McCarthy, Robbie Feinberg and Corey Johnson
Yale fell behind 12-0 to Columbia (3 mins) starting Thomas Ryan
Brown fell behind Cornell 10-5 (4 mins) starting Travis Fuller, Brian Sullivan, and Obie Okolie
Dartmouth started Guilen Smith until tied 7-7 (4.5 minutes).
So, who does Penn start vs Brown on Saturday evening? Woods, Rothschild and Silpe are no brainers. How about Collin McManus and Jackson Donahue?
Princeton's game Saturday may not be consequential, but Stephens is a starter. What about Bramlage and Brabari?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-04-19 08:30 PM - Post#279382
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Will Senior Night have an impact? Last weekend:
Harvard took a 6-3 lead over Princeton (5 mins) despite starting 5 seniors, none of whom usually even play: Balsa Dragovich, Weisner Perez, Tommy McCarthy, Robbie Feinberg and Corey Johnson
Yale fell behind 12-0 to Columbia (3 mins) starting Thomas Ryan
Brown fell behind Cornell 10-5 (4 mins) starting Travis Fuller, Brian Sullivan, and Obie Okolie
Dartmouth started Guilen Smith until tied 7-7 (4.5 minutes).
So, who does Penn start vs Brown on Saturday evening? Woods, Rothschild and Silpe are no brainers. How about Collin McManus and Jackson Donahue?
Princeton's game Saturday may not be consequential, but Stephens is a starter. What about Bramlage and Brabari?
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4005
Reg: 11-23-04
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Ivy League Season Champion
03-04-19 08:51 PM - Post#279384
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
It's Chris Sullivan.
Edited by Old Bear on 03-04-19 08:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-04-19 08:57 PM - Post#279386
In response to Old Bear
Thank you. I'll need to watch more games!
Senior night is a great thing. Parents so proud and guys getting a chance to play.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-19 11:34 PM - Post#279406
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I believe Princeton is the only school that could still theoretically finish in any of the first four places. They avoid playing the first game of the ILT against Yale on the Yalies home court by sneaking in and grabbing the top seed if they win both games this weekend and Harvard drops both of its games (unlikely) or by losing both games and dropping to the 4th seed behind Brown if Yale doesn’t beat out Harvard for the top seed. I think the most important thing for the Tigers is to play two good games and gain some momentum.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1422
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-04-19 11:42 PM - Post#279407
In response to TigerFan
Yale at home in their first as tournament host is a tough draw. But they have lost two of their last three there.
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-05-19 12:38 AM - Post#279412
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
McManus is sitting out the year and will graduate and play his last year elsewhere as a grad transfer. So he won’t start.
I suspect with the season on the line, you may not see Penn or Cornell do anything unusual on senior night.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-05-19 08:54 AM - Post#279422
In response to SomeGuy
I think we'll see Antonio, Jake, Jackson and Max all start on Saturday with AJ. All our active seniors will start.
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bradley
PhD Student
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Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 09:24 AM - Post#279423
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Although there are only two regular season games to go plus IvyMadness, the league as a group did improve this year. Although injuries were certainly a factor, no team will crack the top 75 at the end of the day. Yale, the one good team, with virtually no injuries is #87-- KenPom.
The league is still looking for one breakout team/season which will generate a tremendous amount of public relations far more than what IvyMadness can provide or even a two bid season.
If Harvard had Towns and Aiken all year, there was a realistic possibility that they would have finished somewhere between 50-75 but you never know and injuries are simply part of the landscape for any IL or other league team.
If everyone is on board next year and they play a challenging schedule, can Harvard land somewhere between #35-50, perhaps although I think that there are questions surrounding their big men as Lewis and Baker are good but not great. Also, the performance of the other IL teams in non-conference play will certainly be a factor.
If Harvard goes on a great run, the basketball world will notice. Will they be great or very very good -- not sure but it is really tough to play with the Big Boys. They have one last chance with the Big Three. It says alot about Amaker that they may win this year although they certainly had some good fortune (luck) in several games.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 09:57 AM - Post#279424
In response to bradley
Kinda humorous that this is the year the NCAA decided to move to the NET. Harvard right now is 48 in RPI with a 2-3 Q1 record and 3-3 Q2 record. With another Q2 and Q1 game upcoming in the Ivy Tourney, could have been looking at a 10 or 11 seed. Now, Yale’s probably our best hope for even the 13 line with everyone else looking at a 14 without some conf tourney carnage.
Womp womp.
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bradley
PhD Student
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Age: 74
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 10:41 AM - Post#279425
In response to mrjames
I did see where Lunardi just moved Yale to #14 vs. #13. It would seem that Harvard would probably be a #14 vs. #13 if they win out but alot of it depends on the fate of some of the teams in front of them.
Princeton would probably be a #15 along with Penn and possibly Brown (15 or 16) with Cornell being a #16 seed.
Hopefully, Harvard or some IL team can get get to a #10 or #11 -- Harvard certainly appears to have the best opportunity for next year.
ESPN and others would give Harvard and IL a considerable amoung of coverage next year if this happens as everyone loves David beating a Goliath. The Tigers almost did that against Georgetown/Mourning which needless to say generated incredible PR for the Ivies as witnessed by the ESPN 30/30 story
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mrjames
Professor
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Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 12:18 PM - Post#279438
In response to bradley
Depending on how things shake out, Harvard might be more likely to be on a higher seed line than Yale as the Ivy rep, because it already has the better Q1/Q2 profile and would have to win neutral/road games to win the Ivy title vs home games. Because of the stupid cut lines though, there’s a lot riding on Yale getting back into the Top 75 for Harvard (extra Q1 win). For Yale, it needs Miami to stay Top 100 and to win at Penn (without Penn dropping out of the 135) to get 2 Q2 wins.
Penn has a better profile than Princeton, still. Penn would likely be a 14 if it made it. Princeton, Brown or Cornell would all be looking at 15/16s.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 12:34 PM - Post#279441
In response to mrjames
Princeton, Brown or Cornell would all be looking at 15/16s.
Would any of them go to Dayton?
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 150
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 01:34 PM - Post#279447
In response to Go Green
Hope not. That would be the ultimate embarrassment to a league that believes it's on the rise. Yet it's possible when you have one bid and you decide to let the worst of your best have a second chance to wipe away a mediocre record made over 4 months.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 01:41 PM - Post#279448
In response to Naismith
Hope not. That would be the ultimate embarrassment to a league that believes it's on the rise.
I'm actually hoping it happens so you all can realize that it's really no big deal, that the sun will rise the next day, and that nobody will remember it the following season.
I mean... our rep was a #16 seed last season.
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 150
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 04:43 PM - Post#279475
In response to Go Green
Huh?
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Ivy League Season Champion
03-05-19 05:01 PM - Post#279479
In response to Naismith
Huh?
I always prided myself on being clear in my writing. But I'm always happy to improve if people don't get my point. Will try again.
People who think that going to Dayton is the "ultimate embarrassment" for a league are just wrong. I'm confident that the public understands that if there is an upset in the confernce tournament (and it happens) and the winner gets sent to Dayton, it doesn't mean that you have a weak conference.
If Penn/Brown/Cornell defies the odds and gets sent to Dayton, the Ivy will be fine. Who knows? Maybe they even win a game and bring a nice fat check to the league office.
Next year is an entirely different year. Nobody is talking about giving UVA a lower seed because they were on the wrong end of a historic upset last year. Nobody will penalize the Ivy next season if our rep goes to Dayton. If a full strength Harvard plays to its potential in 2019-20, they will get top-25 votes.
Happy to elaborate more if you wish...
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-05-19 05:09 PM - Post#279482
In response to Go Green
I'd like to share a different concern.
Our final is held very late in the process, ending Sunday around 2:30pm. Penn didn't deserve to be a 16 seed. I believe I heard a theory that because the committee is too focused elsewhere that they don't really want to change much for our late benefit and thus slapped our rep in the 16th seeding, regardless.
Anyone think this is a real risk?
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-05-19 05:18 PM - Post#279484
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
It very well could be a risk, but I don't think that's why Penn got a 16 (and Harvard likely would have too last year). The simple story is that Penn didn't have any Quad 1 or 2 wins last year, and Harvard only would have had one — the Ivy final — if it had won the tourney.
Since the committee is mostly just counting those wins when it comes to 13 to 16 seeds, we would have been stuck with a 16 no matter when we decided things. That's why, despite a decent Kenpom rating, Penn got such a tough draw.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-05-19 05:23 PM - Post#279485
In response to mobrien
OK, then could it be that the committee determines the draw for the weaker of the 2 finalists and slots the winner there regardless?
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-05-19 05:47 PM - Post#279489
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I don't think so? Princeton got the 12-seed it deserved in 2017, even though it was playing a Yale team in the final that, had it won, probably would have been a 15 or 16 seed given that it only would have had one Quad 2 win (the Ivy final).
Last year, Harvard and Penn both likely would have been 16s, so it doesn't tell us much.
If Yale or Harvard got worse than a 14 seed this year, that would be evidence in support of your theory.
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The Quad
Sophomore
Posts: 137
Reg: 12-16-04
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03-05-19 06:27 PM - Post#279493
In response to mobrien
Agree with HarvardDadGrad. The comment that last year Penn was equivalent to Harvard and should have been a #16 seed I recall is incorrect. According to most pundits & bracketologists, Penn could have gone as high as #13 and likely a #14; Penn was under-seeded. That is why many were predicting Penn as the first #16 to beat a #1 seed, and their low point spread reflected that. That sucked up so much publicity, no one gave UMBC a rat’s chance against Virginia.
My sense is that the NCAA Troglodyte Selection Committee, knowing that Harvard deserved a #16 seed, did not want to do an alternate seeding chart to have Penn, not in a Power 5 conference, especially in the Ivy League, be rightfully slotted.
That is a big disadvantage of have the Ivy League Tournament on Selection Sunday.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4005
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-05-19 06:47 PM - Post#279495
In response to The Quad
Brown is clearly in the best position to get favorable treatment by the Committee .
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-05-19 06:48 PM - Post#279496
In response to The Quad
My point is, I think the pundits had it wrong last year. Penn had zero — let me repeat, zero — Quad 1 or 2 wins last year. Its best wins were St. Joe's on a neutral court (#116 in Kenpom) and Harvard (#141) twice at home. A team without any Quad 1 or 2 wins was very unlikely to be a 13 or 14.
I defer to mrjames here, but my sense is that the committee almost solely looks at Quad 1 and 2 wins when it's seeding the 13 to 16s.
What made Penn a trendy pick was it had the overall efficiency of a 14 seed, but was a 16. To give you a better idea of that, Wright State was a 14 last year despite having a slightly lower Kenpom rating than Penn (125 vs 133), largely, I'd argue, because it had three Quad 2 wins to Penn's zero.
Georgia State was probably the best example of this. They got a 15 last year despite having a better Kenpom rating (#101) than four of the teams seeded ahead of them. In fact, I think Georgia State might have had one of the three best efficiency margins of any 15 seed in the Kenpom era (so going back to 2002). The problem, once again, was no Quad 1 or 2 wins.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-05-19 11:30 PM - Post#279518
In response to mobrien
Yeah, the 13s thru 16s are usually sorted out by either the Q1 and Q2 wins OR a gaudy W-L record. Penn played most of its games against Q4 teams. Harvard wouldn’t have been in much better shape but at least the win @Penn would have been Q2. I don’t think anyone would have sneezed at either being on the 15 line, but a 16 with those resumes wasn’t all that harsh.
Between Yale having a crazy W-L record (and a decent win against Miami) and Harvard, Princeton and Penn (Brown to a lesser extent with its blowout of SDSU) having the goods in the quality win dept, the entire Ivy Tourney this year should safely be seeded above last year’s rep.
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Bryan
Junior
Posts: 233
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-19 10:16 AM - Post#280122
In response to mrjames
With the Yale and Harvard losses last night the Ivy regular season champ will have at least 4 losses. That has only happened 4 times in league history, 83-84 Princeton, 84-85 Penn, 85-86 Brown and 86-87 Penn. If both Yale and Harvard lose tonight it will be the first time the Ivy champ has 5 losses and only the second 3 way tie for the title.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Ivy League Season Champion
03-09-19 11:57 AM - Post#280137
In response to Bryan
HYP each lose in awful performances. Is this a conincidence? What will Y at P look like tonight? Will Princeton play Schwieger? How will Oni, Aiken, Lewis, etc rebound from their worst performances of the year?
Will top seeds go 1-5 this weekend only because someone has to win in Princeton?
If this malaise at the top is endemic to having clinched a Tournament slot after 5 grueling weeks of back to backs, doesn't that add another obstacle for 2 NCAA bids? Can a top 45 team who has come to play for 20+ games now continue the intensity for not just the tournament, but also the final weekend? Throw in midterm exams and papers, injuries, fatigue, and expose teams with little to play for to the dismal environs of desperate teams. Cornell and Princeton gyms were embarrassingly empty and quiet. Of course, what the nations sees is a 4pm game where Princeton holds back a player, commits 25 TO's, and still almost wins.
Have we actually diminished ourselves in the eyes of the national basketball fans by establishing additional hurdles? Doesn't this decrease the likelihood of a second bid? HYP likely saw their KP's drop last night. If any of HYP had been under consideration for an at large bid, last evening might have eliminated that chance.
Last evening we delivered to our fans uninspired and ugly basketball by creating a focus on making the tournament, instead of motivating the competition between the 3 teams eligible to win the regular season. Instead of a possible 3 team tie breaker with playoffs, we'be sublimated that to figuring out which squad finishes 4th.
The folly infected the league yesterday. Unless H or Y decide that they are willing to risk injured or tired players to win the regular season tonight, the only contest is Brown at Penn for 4th place - at 6pm, not televised.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-09-19 11:59 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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03-09-19 11:59 AM - Post#280138
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
You're blaming last night's HYP losses on the tournament? Really?
LOL.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-09-19 12:00 PM - Post#280139
In response to TheLine
Yup.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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03-09-19 12:01 PM - Post#280140
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Then let's just award HYP teams a participation trophy and call it a day.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-09-19 12:28 PM - Post#280141
In response to TheLine
Try the numbers:
Harvard was 5-3 against non-H/P
Princeton was 8-1 against non-H/Y
Yale was 8-1 against non-H/P
So, these 3 teams were a combined 21-5 against the remainder of the league, but 0-3 last evening.
I believe the probability of these 3 Tournament clinched squads going 0-3 last evening was 0045, or 1 in over 200.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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03-09-19 01:06 PM - Post#280144
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
There is only one "real" benefit that has come out of IvyMadness . When the Tigers went undefeated and won the initial inane IvyMadness, they received a #12 seed for the Big Dance and the strong likelihood is that they would have a received a #13 seed without beating Penn and Yale at the Palestra. If Yale wins IvyMadness this year at home, they may be pushed backed a seed at the Big Dance with their lack luster performance after clinching a spot for this year's inane IvyMadness tournament. Other than that, they are simply no "real" benefits tonight vs. imagined ones.
But I forgot, the players simply LOVE IT!
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TheLine
Professor
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03-09-19 01:37 PM - Post#280145
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Maybe your teams aren't as good as you think they are. Maybe the non-HYPs are better than you give them credit for,
You have to play all the games. That didn't seem to be an issue last year or the year before. Remember there are no HYP privilege points in basketball.
If you can't beat the 4-5-6 teams in the league then how do you think you're going to fare in the tournament?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-09-19 02:45 PM - Post#280161
In response to TheLine
Uh, you’re ignoring the stats. All that changed is that this weekend became relatively meaningless for 3 teams. That’s the variable.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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03-09-19 02:53 PM - Post#280166
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Uh, no.
Maybe you are ignoring the stats? Penn is 2nd in KP in the league, last night's game was close to a toss-up. Brown has a higher KP rating than Princeton and is better than a Cannady-less Princeton.
You could argue that Harvard and Yale have more incentive to land the 2 seed and play Cannady-less Princeton in the first round, but that's it.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
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03-09-19 03:43 PM - Post#280175
In response to TheLine
Let's not forget that Harvard is 2 Bryce Aiken circus shots away from needing a victory tonight to make the conference tournament.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-09-19 03:46 PM - Post#280176
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
There’s a big problem with your logic here. You’re ignoring what the odds were of those teams going 8-1 in the first place. Those teams beat the odds to get where they were. They’ve ended up somewhere pretty close to where the odds said they should be overall at the start of the season (which is why I predicted the league champ would lose at least 3 and quite possibly 4 at the outset of the league season).
I only saw one game last night, but at least as far as Yale is concerned they didn’t look like a team with nothing to play for. Jones, Copeland, and Williams in particular all looked pretty PO’d about what was going on.
These teams are all playing for seeding in both the Ivy tournament and the NCAAs. I find it a little odd that everyone is lamenting the perceived loss of a higher seed allegedly due to the Ivy tournament. If it matters so much, go out and win the dang games, rather than saying your kids lost because they didn’t care.
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 150
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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03-09-19 04:26 PM - Post#280180
In response to SomeGuy
One of four potential #15 seeds will get a ticket to move on next week.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-09-19 04:37 PM - Post#280181
In response to SomeGuy
All of these comments still don’t explain the discrepancy and coincidence of teams that were 21-5 dropping all 3 games once they have locked up a spot in the Tournament. This is not a disparagement of any team, just an empirical fact.
Pre-season expectations are superseded by actual performance and now irrelevant.
KP measures OOC which is also now largely irrelevant. Freshmen aren’t freshmen any longer, injured stars have returned, or not, and there have been other roster changes, good and bad.
The tournament is flawed and yesterday is just another example of how it influences things. The concept that HYP are playing for seeding is more than a stretch. Seeding in our tournament is fluid and largely irrelevant. Finishing first doesn’t tell you who you will play as it still could be Princeton, Penn or Brown. The NCAA’s likely could care less how things turn out this weekend - unless it gives the committee an opportunity to shaft the Ivy rep. - again.
Looking frustrated at how you lost is less important that being prepared and focused at the start.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
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03-09-19 05:00 PM - Post#280182
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
IvyMadness proponents seem to fall into several caterogies:
1. Well intended -- some supporters who believed mistakenly that the IL was going to be a 2 bid league back in 2016 and prior to.
2. Dartmouth, Cornell and Browns of the world who believe that they have a competitive disadvantage in recruiting players especially for some tough weather places, Ithaca and Hanover.
3. Others from historically great basketball programs that have run into some tough times prior to 2016 and simply wanted a 2nd bite of the apple by having a chance to go to the Big Dance -- no matter how; right or wrong.
The Kool Aid drinking comes from one of these sources but as our friend way up North stated -- we won/you lost.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-19 05:03 PM - Post#280183
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Well, there is a tournament and we don't really know why all top 3 teams lost yesterday (other than Princeton, crippled with losses). But certainly, it's not because they were packing it in for the playoff. The opposite may be true--that the lower ranked schools played harder than they might have if they were out of it.
I agree with you that they should have stayed with the original format. But they didn't and here we are. Don't bitch about losing---it happens. Excuses suck.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
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03-09-19 06:18 PM - Post#280191
In response to palestra38
I understand your perspective and we agree on much. This isn’t about losing as H already lost to Cornell at Lavietes. I just see the focus on who comes in 4th instead of who wins the league as becoming pervasive, even affecting outcomes this final weekend. Just another argument against the tournament.
By the way, I accept the facts that Im reading suggesting that HYP took their feet off the gas last night. It’s good long term strategy
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Go Green
PhD Student
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03-09-19 06:20 PM - Post#280193
In response to bradley
IvyMadness proponents seem to fall into several caterogies:
1. Well intended -- some supporters who believed mistakenly that the IL was going to be a 2 bid league back in 2016 and prior to.
2. Dartmouth, Cornell and Browns of the world who believe that they have a competitive disadvantage in recruiting players especially for some tough weather places, Ithaca and Hanover.
3. Others from historically great basketball programs that have run into some tough times prior to 2016 and simply wanted a 2nd bite of the apple by having a chance to go to the Big Dance -- no matter how; right or wrong.
The Kool Aid drinking comes from one of these sources but as our friend way up North stated -- we won/you lost.
Can I play too?
Defenders of the old system are generally broken down to one or more of the following categories:
1) Guys convinced that the 6-8 entry to the tournament will win the tourney every season and not only get sent to Dayton ("the ultimate embarrassment"), but deprive the rightful champion of a potential Sweet Sixteen (or better) appearance.
2) Guys convinced that the regular season champion is our "best" team no matter if it squeaked by the #2 team on controversial calls, when the #2 team's best player was sick/injured/suspended, or even if the #1 team's best player breaks his leg or gets suspended late in the season.
3) Guys concerned about "fairness," even though the rest of the world doesn't agree with it or that the players really enjoy the tournament.
Fun, no?
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-19 06:34 PM - Post#280197
In response to bradley
3. Others from historically great basketball programs that have run into some tough times prior to 2016 and simply wanted a 2nd bite of the apple by having a chance to go to the Big Dance -- no matter how; right or wrong.
I've generally stayed out of this debate because frankly I find it boring (just as boring as I did before the tournament became a reality when we incessantly argued about if we SHOULD have a tournament). That said, this argument of yours, clearly targeted at Penn fans is not only tiring, but also completely incorrect.
Are there a few Penn fans who are pro-tournament, absolutely. BUT, the majority Penn fans are and were totally against it. Before the tournament happened (even when we were terrible), I was absolutely dead set against it and many posts in the archive would back that up. You've made this point a few times and made it out that all Penn fans are behind it, inferring its because the program went into the dumps. It's tired and it's wrong. Those posters supporting it are the SAME posters like SomeGuy who supported it before it happened when we had these threads like 12 years ago (they were behind it when we were still good).
You also are completely missing a selection of fans who support it, and / or accept it. Those are fans who were always against it, but once it began a reality, gave it a chance and had fun so enjoyed it. You can count me in that category (it was fun when we lost and when we won).
Is it my preference, no, but it has been entertaining and it's WAAAY more fun to roll with it than rail against it.
Lastly, the Princeton fans who keep saying that an Ivy Championship is more important than going to NCAAs, that's the DUMBEST thing I've seen written on this board, and the kind of backward thinking that has led to the travesty of not letting our football teams compete in the play offs.
So feel free to get back to beating the dead horse, but while doing so, give up the crap argument that its a lot of Penn fans who want it because the program went into the crapper.
Thanks
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section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-09-19 11:34 PM - Post#280357
In response to Mike Porter
Thanks Mike for correcting the revisionist lies.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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03-10-19 09:09 AM - Post#280381
In response to section110
As the one who debated Mike James endlessly when he pitched the advantages of the tournament and I was dead set against it, I acknowledge he was right and I was wrong.
I get the arguments against the tournament because they are the same ones that I used to make.
Mike's best arguments were that
1) The team who won the regular season may not necessarily be the team with the best chance to succeed in the tournament.
2) The team who won the regular season may not be the "best" team.
3) Having a tournament would lift the play of the league since teams have something to play for.
We can debate whether point 1) is the case. KP would argue that point 2) is correct this year (unless we give the title to Yale outright). Point 3) is certainly the case.
For the record I graduated from both Penn and Columbia. I don't know how the Columbia fan base feels about the tournament. I know the Penn fan base is mostly opposed.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-19 09:26 AM - Post#280383
In response to TheLine
It is opposed to the concept. But you cannot deny that in practice, the League has been very exciting since the tournament began. The overall quality of the games and competitiveness of the League has improved dramatically. While some here have blamed the lackluster performance of the top 3 in the last weekend on the tournament (*), the play of the bottom 5 over the second half of the season shows that you no longer see teams giving up and playing out the string anymore. Plus, so far, the tournament itself has been competitive. I would have been very disappointed if Penn lost yesterday, but if you can't make 4th, it's fair not to have a full 8 team tournament.
* This criticism is frivolous. Princeton was crippled with injuries and the withdrawal of its best player. Yale and Harvard were playing on the road and lost to teams playing for a spot--neither rested its starters or anything like that--they just got beaten and then won the following night.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-10-19 11:22 AM - Post#280400
In response to Mike Porter
Are there a few Penn fans who are pro-tournament, absolutely. … Those posters supporting it are the SAME posters like SomeGuy who supported it before it happened when we had these threads like 12 years ago (they were behind it when we were still good).
Asia was part of that group as well.
In any event, I always believed that the impetus for the tournament was Yale getting hosed by the NIT and the other post-season tournaments in 2015.
When Yale gets urinated, changes happen. Same thing happened in football when we implemented instant replay the season after Yale got hosed on an incorrect (albeit perfectly forgivable in real time) call at Dartmouth that cost them a perfect season.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-10-19 05:50 PM - Post#280509
In response to TheLine
As the one who debated Mike James endlessly when he pitched the advantages of the tournament and I was dead set against it, I acknowledge he was right and I was wrong.
I get the arguments against the tournament because they are the same ones that I used to make.
Mike's best arguments were that
1) The team who won the regular season may not necessarily be the team with the best chance to succeed in the tournament.
2) The team who won the regular season may not be the "best" team.
3) Having a tournament would lift the play of the league since teams have something to play for.
We can debate whether point 1) is the case. KP would argue that point 2) is correct this year (unless we give the title to Yale outright). Point 3) is certainly the case.
Would you believe that there are guys on this Board who claim that they have never heard of any benefits for having the tournament?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-10-19 06:10 PM - Post#280510
In response to Go Green
Imagine
Yale watches from Princeton as Harvard beats Columbia in OT
One game playoff at the Palestra scheduled for next Saturday
Sells out
National TV coverage
We are all entitled to dream/reminisce about a better world
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-10-19 06:22 PM - Post#280514
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Imagine
Yale watches from Princeton as Harvard beats Columbia in OT
One game playoff at the Palestra scheduled for next Saturday
Sells out
National TV coverage
We are all entitled to dream/reminisce about a better world
Loser's season is over because the NIT only gives auto-bids to regular season champs who hold conference tournaments and the CIT/CBI are already full.
https://www.courant.com/sports/college/hc-yal e-nit...
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-10-19 09:37 PM - Post#280566
In response to SomeGuy
These teams are all playing for seeding in both the Ivy tournament and the NCAAs. I find it a little odd that everyone is lamenting the perceived loss of a higher seed allegedly due to the Ivy tournament. If it matters so much, go out and win the dang games, rather than saying your kids lost because they didn’t care.
It’s fear. It has been going on for a few weeks, too. They know the awful luck Penn has had this year and now they don’t have the Palestra excuse to fall back on if things go south. They also can’t yell about the 4-seed being sub-.500 so that extra league win could have helped the argument.
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