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Username Post: The Finale vs Cornell        (Topic#22826)
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 627

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
03-09-19 03:18 PM - Post#280173    

Dartmouth Basketball
Predictions Update
Mar 9, 2019
• After losing to Columbia 70-66 yesterday, Dartmouth is now projected to finish the regular season 11-19 (2-12 Ivy).
• We currently rank Dartmouth as the #219 team in the country, and the #6 team in the Ivy.
• Next game: Sat, Mar 9 at #235 Cornell. Our power ratings give the Big Green a 43% chance to win.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
flinder 
Freshman
Posts: 16

Age: 40
Reg: 11-16-16
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-10-19 10:01 AM - Post#280391    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

So what's the verdict on this season?

It started out with some promise, and the team seems to have moved past the Boudreaux Fiasco. There are talented players to build with—Brendan Barry and Chris Knight, especially, and solid potential pieces like Taurus Samuels, Adrease Jackson (anyone know why he didn't play except against Yale in the last five games?), and Aaryn Rai. On the other hand, we couldn't close out a single close game this season, which you could either read as 'we were within one possession of victory so many times' or as 'we couldn't figure out how to win it in the end'. We lost our last eight games.

I don't think it makes sense to dump the coach, but a 2-12 record in the league is not something upon which to hang one's hat. What do you think McLaughlin needs to do next year to stay here? Let's say that half of those within-one-possession games were winnable, assuming they were all essentially toss-ups. That means I think he needs to at least improve to 5-9 next year. Will that be enough?

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
03-10-19 12:51 PM - Post#280426    
    In response to flinder


I agree with most of this. Samuels may ended up being a fine player for us. But he wasn't the Rookie of the Year candidate that some were hoping he'd be.

Knight seemed to get less effective as the season progressed. Whether that was a result of frustration, the loss of Jackson, teams knowing how to play him the second time around, or a combination thereof, I don't know. I thought for a while he was a lock for at least second-team All Ivy. Now I think he'll probably get third-team.

As is the case when you have a disappointing season, McLaughlin can at least legitimately point to the future with optimism. Assuming everyone returns, one can only assume that they will be better. Win a few close ones early, and then the team builds confidence instead of snowballing the way it did this season.

As for benchmarks, I'm not going to say that it's tourney or bust. But expectations will indeed be higher. Another last place finish, and McLaughlin will be in serious trouble.

And I personally want to pull the plug on Koclanes. I just don't think she's the person who is going to lead DWD back to glory. I think that Wielgus could have easily done what Koclanes has done....

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 627

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-11-19 06:51 AM - Post#280587    
    In response to flinder

The verdict 2-12 is not okay

Our best win was refuted in the rematch at Harvard. I had hoped we'd sweep Columbia. I thought we found some additional scoring off the bench in that first game. That didn't translate into the second game looking at the box score.

In this era we have gone 4,3,2 wins in league. Given our history it's hard to argue that this is a new trend or the basis of a coaching change. We're perpetually at the bottom of the league. Unfortunately we have a mediocre approach to the basketball programs evidenced in the tone of everything that comes out of the program media and heads. Please spare me the big green building or we're only a couple made baskets from a better season. That's the participation trophy mentality.

I think we have player talent, and the coaches record is what it is. Not being able to close out close games is not a talent issue. It's a coaching and player confidence issue. It's the mediocrity that casts a pall over the programs.

We're always building and by my estimation we're going to be several steps behind the top 4 teams for a long while. Maybe by the time this year's freshman are seniors we'll have a shot at the last spot in the tourney, just from an experience and chemistry standpoint.

Watching the sidelines I can't say that I see a lot of joie de vivre between the players and coaches, coaches and the game, and even between the players. Losing like this takes it's toll on everyone. I don't get the sense that we have a charismatic players coach. So it's hard to imagine we have a leadership that can change the attitude of the program. Given where we are it will take someone who can get everyone even the end of the bench to buy in. In hindsight losing E.B. says a lot more. We point the finger at the player but being able to manage players and expectations is a coaching issue. You have to be able to keep your team together. So losing the programs biggest legacy says a lot. Coaching turnover doesn't help. I'm making a leap but for a newly tenured, coach keeping your coaching staff together also is telling. It'll be interesting to see if everyone with the exception of our lone seniors returns next year. That will speak volumes.


Injuries definitely didn't help this year but that was an issue I saw coming before league started. We didn't invest much in our bench. We ran our best guys to exhaustion. They were visibly tired in a lot of games. You are not going to win the second half of a back to back after overtime game the day before without depth. Amaker spoke about this at the beginning of league. They played most of season without arguably their best two players. It can be done.

I want our guys to win. I want our program to thrive. I just don't see the commitment across the program to get there soon.
"...no excuses - only results!”


Edited by GoBigGreenBasketball on 03-11-19 07:16 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-11-19 10:20 AM - Post#280611    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball


It's hard to disagree too strongly with anything you said.

But I reiterate that if a team has a disappointing year, then the best thing a coach can say is--with a straight face--that the future looks brighter.

I do think that with everyone coming back, the incoming recruits, and the transfer, that the Dartmouth men should expect to be in the tournament next season. Now, should we get unexpected bad news, then all bets are off.

I do not think that the same can be said for the Dartmouth women.

 
ivyrules 
Freshman
Posts: 7

Age: 46
Reg: 11-27-17
The Finale vs Cornell
03-11-19 11:59 AM - Post#280623    
    In response to Go Green

Don’t really have a dog here, but these three losses, each surprising when they occurred, seem to have killed the momentum and interesting recovery that begun after the program practically disbanded under what’s his name

Mitola
Cormier
Boudreaux

When you step back and take a look at the last 10 years, both records and rankings, the coaching change 3 years ago was arguably Dartmouth’s Plaxico Burris moment

Or perhaps there was no Plaxico moment and you can chalk it up to Dartmouth’s lack of caring

The scheduling for mbb next year will be interesting. On the one hand McLaughlin needs to save his job and pick up some wins before conference play. But on the other hand the #308 ranked non-conference strength of schedule didn’t seem to prepare the team for conference play

Only 2 of their 9 D1 wins came vs league opponents, and the other 7 were against teams at the bottom 25% of division 1

Edited by ivyrules on 03-11-19 12:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-11-19 12:22 PM - Post#280626    
    In response to ivyrules

  • ivyrules Said:


Mitola
Cormier
Boudreaux




No question that the losses of Mitola and Boudreaux were devastating and doomed the following season (in EB's case, two seasons) before they began. Those guys definitely would have helped us win more games.

I think most agree that if we had Cormier, we would have pulled out a few close games as wins. He's seen it all, and was widely-regarded as the best Xs and Os guys in the league. Stealing the 2015 Yale finale with 2 seconds left is the stuff of legend...

That being said, my impression is that McLaughlin has brought in (and is continuing to bring in) better players. I don't have anything to back it up. But recruiting just seems stronger under McLaughlin than Cormier. It hasn't translated into wins... at least not yet.

I was sorry to see Cormier go. My recollection was that Sheehy thought that Cormier had a ceiling and that we would never be a consistent upper-division team under his watch. Personally, I think the same can be said for Koclanes. The same may or may not be true for McLaughlin, but I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt given that the team is so young.


 
ivyrules 
Freshman
Posts: 7

Age: 46
Reg: 11-27-17
The Finale vs Cornell
03-11-19 01:17 PM - Post#280636    
    In response to Go Green

Perhaps my distance here is helping me see clearer than you, Dartmouth’s number one fan

But if memory serves, Cormier recruited two ROYs in a row, including Boudreaux, who coulda shoulda woulda brought Dartmouth to glory. That as well as Cormier’s convincing Maldunas and Mitola to choose Dartmouth back when they were still a laughing stock seems at least equal to McLaughlin’s recruiting success

Cormier also brought in three terrific backcourt guys in Sistare, Foye, and Barry

Knight is fabulous talent, and he was pulled in by McLaughlin, but is he is as big of an impact player as Boudreaux or Maldunas or Mitola for that matter?

Would be interesting to compare Boudreaux’ and Maldunas’ sophomore stats vs Knights’

Three years into the new tenure, the only players recruited by McLaughlin who are seeing time are Rai, Samuels, and Knight

The former two are playing behind Cormier recruits Foye, Sistare, Barry

So I don’t concur with your recruiting assessment

Edited by ivyrules on 03-11-19 01:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-11-19 01:36 PM - Post#280639    
    In response to ivyrules

  • ivyrules Said:
Knight is fabulous talent, and he was pulled in by McLaughlin, but is he is as big of an impact player as Boudreaux or Maldunas or Mitola for that matter?




While I personally don't think it will happen, people are speculating that Knight will be named First Team All Ivy. As a sophomore.

None of the other guys you listed got that in their Dartmouth careers. (Granted, EB and Mitola probably would have if they stuck around).

So....

And I also think its debatable how much credit Cormier gets for "recruiting" Boudreaux. Most agree that if his mother wasn't a Dartmouth basketball legend and influential alumna, he probably doesn't give Dartmouth a second look.


Edited by Go Green on 03-11-19 01:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 627

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-11-19 01:54 PM - Post#280642    
    In response to ivyrules

  • ivyrules Said:
...
Only 2 of their 9 D1 wins came vs league opponents, and the other 7 were against teams at the bottom 25% of division 1



I was happy to get the noncon wins as a fan I buy into the hype, although I discounted the D3 wins. I did recognize the fact that the SOS was really low. But the wins helped with morale...that is until conference started.

I'd be interested to hear something I'd anything from the AD and the coach on the status and expectations of the program. It's hard to get to invested because at the end of the day these kids are getting an IVY education. I think you can have basketball aspirations and get the degree, but again the will to win had to start from the top. I think McLaughlin is there until he doesn't want to be. Unless he gets pushed out by the players i.e. losses the locker room. So, I doubt there is any true pressure to produce like at a top 100 program. It's evident that the league is on the upswing and Dartmouth is still operating as it historically had.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
ivyrules 
Freshman
Posts: 7

Age: 46
Reg: 11-27-17
03-11-19 05:31 PM - Post#280693    
    In response to GoBigGreenBasketball

So first of all, I’m happy that Dartmouth fans are optimistic and I wish you the best

If Dartmouth somehow makes the tourney in the next decade, glad we don’t have your previous coach coaching against us

As long as Dartmouth doesn’t sink our conference ranking too much, all good here and McLaughlin is probably the best option at this point

When it comes to the Boudreaux recruitment I’m pretty sure his and his family’s sights —and options— were higher than Ivy, so I do think Cormier deserves credit there, as does Mike James who once remarked on Twitter:

“There should be some sort of Ivy b-ball HOF where we can induct Paul Cormier simply for getting Miles Wright and Evan Boudreaux to Hanover.” Jan 23, 2016

No offense go green but I think MJ knows a bit more about Ivy basketball than you do.


 
GoBigGreenBasketball 
Masters Student
Posts: 627

Age: 46
Reg: 05-19-16
03-11-19 06:16 PM - Post#280703    
    In response to ivyrules

  • ivyrules Said:
So first of all, I’m happy that Dartmouth fans are optimistic and I wish you the best

If Dartmouth somehow makes the tourney in the next decade, glad we don’t have your previous coach coaching against us

As long as Dartmouth doesn’t sink our conference ranking too much, all good here and McLaughlin is probably the best option at this point

When it comes to the Boudreaux recruitment I’m pretty sure his and his family’s sights —and options— were higher than Ivy, so I do think Cormier deserves credit there, as does Mike James who once remarked on Twitter:

“There should be some sort of Ivy b-ball HOF where we can induct Paul Cormier simply for getting Miles Wright and Evan Boudreaux to Hanover.” Jan 23, 2016

No offense go green but I think MJ knows a bit more about Ivy basketball than you do.




Unfortunately MJ took a vacation this season. We could have really used his insights on the Big Green this season.
"...no excuses - only results!”


 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
03-11-19 08:47 PM - Post#280717    
    In response to ivyrules

  • ivyrules Said:


No offense go green but I think MJ knows a bit more about Ivy basketball than you do.




He's one of the guys who thinks that Knight will get First Team All Ivy, thus giving credence to my point that McLaughlin is the better recruiter.

So we're even.



 
ivyrules 
Freshman
Posts: 7

Age: 46
Reg: 11-27-17
The Finale vs Cornell
03-12-19 07:09 AM - Post#280743    
    In response to Go Green

Lol I think your “point” was kind of moot after you immediately followed it up with

“I don’t have anything to back it up”
“Just seems that way”
“Hasn’t translated into wins”

But your need for a W is actually starting to hurt me and you have dragged me into an extended conversation that is pretty pointless, so uncle mercy and I’LL GIVE IT TO YA!

Edited by ivyrules on 03-12-19 07:11 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-12-19 07:58 AM - Post#280746    
    In response to ivyrules


I do think that MJ is wrong (although I'd be delighted to learn otherwise) that Knight will get First-Team All Ivy. But for what little worth my opinion would be, I believe that Knight and EB are pretty close in talent, but both of them were better than Maldunas.

As for Miles Wright, he certainly had a respectable career at Dartmouth. But other than the ROY (which he got by some clutch playing later in the year), nobody was surprised when he didn't make any All Ivy teams. And if he had any basketball offers besides Dartmouth, I wasn't aware of them (I know he had some football offers).

In any event, I appreciate your interest in Dartmouth's season. Needless to say, our board isn't the most frequently visited on this site...


 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 5442

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: The Finale vs Cornell
03-12-19 09:18 AM - Post#280759    
    In response to Go Green

Yeah... I expect to be wrong on that. Sorry folks.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
03-12-19 05:38 PM - Post#280885    
    In response to mrjames


Knight gets second team All-Ivy.

Congrats to him. I think that's about right. For a while I thought he had a shot at First Team, but as I said earlier, he wasn't as dominant in the second half of the Ivy season as was earlier.

Looking forward to seeing what he and the others can do next season!!

 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3443

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
03-14-19 03:20 PM - Post#281307    
    In response to Go Green

Interesting discussion. I'll only add this: let's not get too hung up on whether or not McLaughlin is a 'good recruiter.' I'm not saying he's not important to recruiting (he's the head coach-- of course he's important). But these conversations about whether a head coach can recruit miss the point. Recruiting is a team effort, and it's a pretty big team. In addition to the HC and the assistants, the basketball staff (assuming there is one), key athletic department staff, key senior university officers, the admissions department, the financial aid office, etc., all need to be working together to land desirable recruits. The Ivies that have recruited particularly well over the past several years all have this going on. So don't focus too much on the head coach's recruiting skills.

 
Go Green 
Masters Student
Posts: 603

Age: 47
Reg: 04-22-10
03-15-19 06:46 PM - Post#281570    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:
Interesting discussion. I'll only add this: let's not get too hung up on whether or not McLaughlin is a 'good recruiter.' I'm not saying he's not important to recruiting (he's the head coach-- of course he's important). But these conversations about whether a head coach can recruit miss the point. Recruiting is a team effort, and it's a pretty big team. In addition to the HC and the assistants, the basketball staff (assuming there is one), key athletic department staff, key senior university officers, the admissions department, the financial aid office, etc., all need to be working together to land desirable recruits. The Ivies that have recruited particularly well over the past several years all have this going on. So don't focus too much on the head coach's recruiting skills.



Point taken.

But I still believe that McLaughlin and his staff are bringing in more guys who had (basketball) offers elsewhere than Cormier and his staff did.

If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.

 
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