Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 570
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-15-19 10:03 AM - Post#281421
Nice reporting by The Inquirer:
https://www.philly.com/news/admissions-bribe ry-sca...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 10:09 AM - Post#281422
In response to Penn90
Which means that the kid's presence at Penn comes into question. If he participated in the fraudulent testing scheme, his application fraud cannot be seen as unknown to him (as if being a recruited athlete who never went out for the team didn't show that). The fact that he apparently is doing well is irrelevant.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23199
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-19 12:00 PM - Post#281453
In response to palestra38
I think each kid should be expelled regardless of knowledge or achievement. There has to be a deterrent. Each kid can reapply, probably to a different school. I know it's harsh.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8141
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-19 12:16 PM - Post#281461
In response to 10Q
'inevitable' is correct and I agree the Inky did a good job with this. As to the kid, pretty sure he is a 2nd semester senior now and I think I read somewhere that he was quite 'admittable' and there is nothing to be gained by kicking him out now.
Punish the parents, reform the school, but leave the kid alone. His name is all over the 'Net now and that is punishment enough. I wonder how his job or grad school search is going?
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23199
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 12:17 PM - Post#281462
In response to Streamers
I hear your argument. I still think he should be booted immediately. Actions have consequences. I can see a hardship exception. Maybe this kid qualifies. But the burden will be on him to show:
1. No knowledge
2. Admittable
3. High achievement
4. Other extenuating circumstances
He will have to show that he meets at least 3 of the 4, and maybe all 4 would be required. I want this kid to grovel.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 12:26 PM - Post#281465
In response to 10Q
I'm with Q. If the kid's "admittability" is due to doctored SATs or ACTs, there should be no question of expulsion
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 469
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 01:04 PM - Post#281476
In response to palestra38
Obviously, if the scores were faked, we're in James Hogue territory - he's gotta go. Regarding "admittability" the article says he got about a 2000/2400 on the SAT - the link below says the 25th percentile for that class was 2070. I would guess that the students below the 25th percentile have something else that helps their application - the advisor was right that the score wasn't good enough.
It's tricky to know what the right thing to do. It's not easy to prove on either end what did the kid know and when did he know it? Or maybe it doesn't matter at all? The best thing the kid could do for himself would be to transfer somewhere else based on his work at Penn but he's probably set to graduate in a couple of months. That would show character.
Ok. Here's what I got. Immediate one year suspension. Re-enrollement contingent on no evidence emerging of the kids active participation in the fraud.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 01:07 PM - Post#281478
In response to umbrellaman
Agreed, but I think the article stated that the 2000 wasn't good enough and they discussed his taking it again in Arizona. If that happened is the contingency under which I say he has to go.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1124
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-15-19 01:58 PM - Post#281498
In response to palestra38
I'm with Q on the punishment end of things. I think you need to come down hard on everyone involved. Someone on the twitter machine suggested Lori Laughlin's daughter should be sentenced to row crew for 4 years. Not sure what the BB equivalent might be.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1150
Reg: 07-28-07
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 02:53 PM - Post#281519
In response to palestra38
P38 - I thought that he WAS going to come out for the BB team but new coach Steve Donahue pretty clearly indicated to him that he was not going to make the team.
Since there are no consequences in the Ivies for those who don't come out (or leave the sport shortly after matriculation) because there are no scholarships, the situation where a student is admitted with an athletic preference and doesn't really come out is not uncommon.
As to the father's contact with Singer, from what I have read he actually DID run a legitimate business that helped with college admissions (Phil Mikkelson said that Singer helped his kid but there was no sham test taking or application) so I would give Morris the benefit of the doubt and let him graduate. I have seen no evidence nor allegation that Morris had someone take the test for him.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 02:59 PM - Post#281522
In response to SteveChop
The minute the news reported that Singer was involved and that he recommended that the kid be tested in Arizona, there needed to be more investigation. While I agree with you that the mere fact that a 5'8 white kid who played low level high school basketball is not per se a fraudulent applicant, once I heard that Singer said that 2000 is not enough for Penn means we don't know all the facts about what happened. If he took a test proctored by one of Singer's stooges, the inference of fraud would have to be rebutted.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1150
Reg: 07-28-07
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 03:08 PM - Post#281531
In response to palestra38
I'd agree with you IF that can be shown. BUT until then, I would not take any action against Morris.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6391
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 09:10 PM - Post#281578
In response to SteveChop
I don’t want to besmirch someone who hasn’t been charged with anything, but did you really read Mickelson’s statement and think that indicated Singer also was involved in legit activity? The statement looked to me like someone trying to get out ahead of something. Maybe he just figured the fact he was a client would eventually come to light and he’d better explain now. But I came away from reading that thinking Mickelson might have been involved.
But returning to Penn, is this the first time Ira Bowman was connected at all to Esformes?
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 469
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-15-19 09:36 PM - Post#281582
In response to SteveChop
I am approaching the position that there needs to be consequences even if the student was somehow unaware in order to disincentivize parents. That’s why I went for the one year suspension. Once he graduates- if SAT fraud is proven, can they strip him of his degree? The suspension acts as its own punishment, and also allows time for evidence to come out.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1878
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: The Inevitable Esformes-Singer Link Emerges 03-17-19 11:49 PM - Post#281863
In response to umbrellaman
I am approaching the position that there needs to be consequences even if the student was somehow unaware in order to disincentivize parents. That’s why I went for the one year suspension. Once he graduates- if SAT fraud is proven, can they strip him of his degree? The suspension acts as its own punishment, and also allows time for evidence to come out.
Yeah, I'm starting to agree with this point. Originally I thought you can't do that, but this is apparently widespread enough that the consequences need to be tougher. In the case of Esformes, it seems likely to me that the son knew all about it.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3044
Reg: 10-20-14
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03-18-19 10:14 AM - Post#281893
In response to Penndemonium
Here is an article that discusses the Yale President's response to these students.
https://www.theroot.com/yale-president-says-u niver...
- Anyone who falsified their applications will have their acceptance rescinded, per President Peter Salovey. Though he failed to provide specifics, Salovey told reporters that students who submit applications to the university must also attest that the contents are complete and accurate.
CBS News reports that Yale has begun its own investigation into whether “others have been involved in activities that corrupted the athletic recruitment and admissions process."
President Salovey's full statement to the Yale community is included here:
https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Read-the -Y...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 10:21 AM - Post#281894
In response to rbg
It's vague, though. Just as some have suggested that the Esformes kid must have known, it's virtually impossible to prove unless he upped his SAT score with a bogus proctored exam. I had a college roommate who was recruited for lacrosse, but never even went out of the team once here. The use of athletic recruiting to get into an Ivy has gone on forever. It's just that bribery now has entered the picture. Unless the kid knew about the bribery, I don't think the fact that he may have known he was not a legit Division 1 basketball player can get his admission rescinded.
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