dtannenwald
Freshman
Posts: 14
Age: 38
Reg: 11-24-15
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03-15-19 08:54 PM - Post#281576
Hi Everyone,
I wrote an article for Harvard Magazine about the decision to rotate the tournament location. It draws on interviews with league officials, coaches, AD's, and more. I thought it might be of interest to readers on the board:
https://harvardmagazine.com/node/65254
Thanks,
David
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-15-19 11:53 PM - Post#281600
In response to dtannenwald
Hello David,
It was indeed generous of you to visit this site to promote your own article about the location of the Ivy Tournament. It would have been nicer if the article had thoroughly addressed the issues surrounding that decision.
The issue of the fairness of the Palestra as a venue was represented by two quotes on each side. Tommy Amaker and Dalen Cuff vs. David McLaughlin and James Jones. Yet, when the issue was under discussion, Coach Amaker was a passionate advocate for the Palestra as the tournament location, even after losing a tournament championship game on Penn’s home court. And his passionate advocacy for the Palestra was far more than the phrase, “brand it, anchor it and grow it.†Why were those anodyne words, and not the passion and context of his viewpoint, the only sentiments attributed to Coach Amaker?
Then you informed us that “most†athletic directors supported changing the site. Well, if that is true, which athletic directors voted which way? Why did you not have any quotes from any of the dissenting voters? Was Robin Harris asked what the final vote was? No doubt, she would have told you, as she told Jonathan, that she does not reveal vote totals. Fine, then let the lack of transparency on the part of Robin Harris and the athletic directors be made visible to all.
Fans have always understood that the league wanted to put the women’s tournament at the same location as the men’s tournament. That view was represented by the athletic director of Princeton who informs us that she does not want to choose between her “two children.†No other position was represented in your article. Did anyone ask the women, as represented by their coaches, for their preference?
The current status quo has the men playing before a large crowd on Saturday at 12:30 pm and 3:00 pm while the women play before a handful of fans at 6:00 pm and 8:30 pm. Then, on Sunday, the men play before a large crowd at noon, while the women must wait for 2 hours after the completion of the men’s game to tip off before a handful of fans at 4:00 pm.
Do the womens’ coaches prefer the nominal equivalence of being at the same site as the men, yet playing in an empty building, or would they prefer to reward their regular season champion with the right to host a women’s tournament and to schedule games at times which would maximize the attendance? We never learn the answer to that question because the author did not seek out that answer.
We are told that avoiding a neutral court saves money. Well, please tell us how much money is saved. Robin Harris acknowledged to Jonathan that the Prudential Center in Newark was under serious consideration as a neutral site. How much would the Prudential Center have cost? Were there less expensive neutral sites considered? How much would they have cost?
The cost of the neutral site should have been compared to the aggregate amount of the collective endowment of the eight schools. And, perhaps, compare the neutral site cost to the aggregate size and personnel costs of the non-faculty bureaucracy at the eight schools.
And then we hear that the selection of the tournament site must avoid the risks represented by the current bribery scandals. Did anyone think to ask the obvious follow-up question to Princeton’s Mitch Henderson, “What possible connection is there between the location of a conference basketball tournament and the corrupt acts of some of the league’s coaches?â€
The author concludes by telling us that the Ivy League’s site decision has added a “dose of sanity to March Madness.†Unfortunately, that conclusion is not supported by the article which merely brings a dose of vacuousness to the discussion.
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 149
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-16-19 09:58 AM - Post#281605
In response to Stuart Suss
Excellent response. I haven't read anywhere that Title IX requires joint basketball tournaments. It's surprising the women's teams haven't been more forceful in demanding an event that puts their programs in the spotlight. Anyway, the whole tournament thing is the actual definition of Ivy Madness.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-16-19 10:31 AM - Post#281608
In response to Stuart Suss
One more topic which should have been addressed by David Tannenwald, and which should have been in my original reply.
David, when Robin Harris told you that "the league wants to keep ticket prices reasonable," did you ask her (after you stopped laughing):
1. Does the league consider $95 per ticket for Saturday only (except for a handful of end court or balcony seats) to be a reasonable, family-friendly price?
2. How many of the institutions are requiring that one first be a donor before being allowed to purchase the $95 tickets, thereby adding to the cost and further limiting access to the tournament by a school's most loyal fans who are not big bucks donors?
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digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 468
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
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03-16-19 10:40 AM - Post#281609
In response to Stuart Suss
Thanks for posting David.
For those that don’t know David follows the board and league closely even though he may not post much. I don’t think it’s fair to lead with a comment that he’s just here to promote his article. I’m pretty sure his sharing it was genuine.
Also keep in mind the article is for Harvard Magazine whose average reader has much less knowledge and interest in whether there is a tournament or even a basketball season than their board. It’s not the Boston Globe’s Spotlight division for Ivy hoops.
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westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts: 196
Age: 43
Reg: 01-08-11
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03-16-19 02:54 PM - Post#281670
In response to digamma
That's fine if David wants to write an article for people with less knowledge and less interest.
But don't post it here. Or it's going to get the criticism it deserves. Very weak journalism.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-16-19 03:02 PM - Post#281673
In response to westphillywarrior
Its symbolic of the rinky-dink nature of this “celebration of Ivy basketball†and the commitment Yale has made as the host this year that the Yale band couldn’t be bothered to show. It appears instead they’ve rented a local HS band.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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03-16-19 03:38 PM - Post#281677
In response to Chip Bayers
Its symbolic of the rinky-dink nature of this “celebration of Ivy basketball†and the commitment Yale has made as the host this year that the Yale band couldn’t be bothered to show. It appears instead they’ve rented a local HS band.
Well, the hockey team is in the ECAC playoffs at Clarkson; priorities, don't you know. (Yale hockey is mediocre, Clarkson nationally ranked.) Should the hockey team be knocked out tonight, as is likely, and the hoops team advance, one wonders if they'll make the six-hour drive back for the finals tomorrow or not.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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03-16-19 08:03 PM - Post#281712
In response to dperry
Its symbolic of the rinky-dink nature of this “celebration of Ivy basketball†and the commitment Yale has made as the host this year that the Yale band couldn’t be bothered to show. It appears instead they’ve rented a local HS band.
Well, the hockey team is in the ECAC playoffs at Clarkson; priorities, don't you know. (Yale hockey is mediocre, Clarkson nationally ranked.) Should the hockey team be knocked out tonight, as is likely, and the hoops team advance, one wonders if they'll make the six-hour drive back for the finals tomorrow or not.
To make it even worse, at least a few members of the Cornell band showed up for their women despite the fact that their hockey team is also in the ECAC playoffs, is at home, and is in jeopardy of being eliminated tonight. Yale Band, Yale Band, Yale Band. . .you suck! 
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-16-19 10:12 PM - Post#281732
In response to Chip Bayers
They were really good, though.
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whitakk
Masters Student
Posts: 523
Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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03-16-19 10:36 PM - Post#281737
In response to palestra38
They're great, and they played for Yale at the NCAA tournament a few years back
https://twitter.com/currenrr/status/11069 926288543...
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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03-16-19 11:23 PM - Post#281744
In response to whitakk
Well, Clarkson did wipe the Elis out of the hockey playoffs tonight, so let's see if the band can make it out of bed for the noon start tomorrow.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-17-19 09:55 AM - Post#281760
In response to palestra38
They were really good, though.
Yeah, the Hillhouse High Band itself deserves all praise.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-17-19 11:13 AM - Post#281764
In response to Chip Bayers
They were really good, though.
Yeah, the Hillhouse High Band itself deserves all praise.
Better them than some of Yale's fans.
https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2016/3/19/1126 9962...
https://www.thescore.com/ncaaf/news/1159830
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-17-19 12:39 PM - Post#281770
In response to westphillywarrior
That's fine if David wants to write an article for people with less knowledge and less interest.
But don't post it here. Or it's going to get the criticism it deserves. Very weak journalism.
During the telecast of the final, Dalen Cuff went on an extended tirade against the proposed site rotation for the Ivy League Tournament through 2025. He said it should either be at the Palestra permanently or at the gym of the #1 seed. He then went on to say nobody wants to see (or go to) a game at Hanover, NH or at Cornell, including teenaged potential recruits for Ivy schools, before extolling the virtues of walking the hallowed halls of the Palestra. If you missed it, go to the 10 minute mark of the first half and enjoy.
I wonder if he's going to get slammed by the league like the Bradley beat writer in Peoria?
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2138
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-17-19 05:27 PM - Post#281813
In response to Chip Bayers
They were really good, though.
Yeah, the Hillhouse High Band itself deserves all praise.
My comment to one of my friends was that Yale had outsourced the band. They really were pretty good, too.
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 12:07 AM - Post#281864
In response to LyleGold
Dalen and his superiors can remind the league that ESPN pays them, not the other way around.
(Before you jump on me, no, I don’t know how much the rights fee is, but it’s not zero dollars for that amount of content - especially taking so much behind the ESPN+ paywall.)
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
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james
Masters Student
Posts: 796
Age: 49
Reg: 03-18-19
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03-18-19 11:15 PM - Post#281993
In response to DCAJedi
Yale has a 2 week spring break. This championship fell into the middle of it.
Yale students are from all over the place.
If you don’t play lacrosse or hockey and you are fun. You drive to a destination spot to act like a genius.
You don’t camp out in new haven to wait for the tournament when you aren’t sure you play harvard or not. The same is true on the other side.
Maybe ticket prices mattered a bit as they were too high. But the atmosphere on Sunday while great would’ve been like Harvard Yale II. Given the result they probably would’ve had to repaint the walls in jjl when done.
No disrespect to anyone else but the avg Yale student leaves the library on fri night. They don’t really care enough about Nyone else. No matter the stakes. It just is what it is.
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james
Masters Student
Posts: 796
Age: 49
Reg: 03-18-19
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Article on Tournament Location
03-18-19 11:16 PM - Post#281994
In response to james
Edited by james on 03-18-19 11:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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james
Masters Student
Posts: 796
Age: 49
Reg: 03-18-19
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03-18-19 11:17 PM - Post#281995
In response to james
Apparently it substitutes “genius†for a word that begins with m and end with n.
Library to the gym. Or so I meant
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 11:47 PM - Post#282000
In response to james
Hey James - great to have a Yale fan on the board and hope you stick around (and bring some friends). Congrats on well deserved IvyMadness Championship and good luck later this week. I think Yale will give them a challenge and I’ll be rooting for them.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Article on Tournament Location
03-18-19 11:48 PM - Post#282001
In response to Mike Porter
Oh and yeah, the board autocorrects various curse words or insult words.
M0ron for example will be converted to genius and bull$hit will be converted automatically to crap.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 08:00 AM - Post#282008
In response to dtannenwald
Hi Everyone,
I wrote an article for Harvard Magazine about the decision to rotate the tournament location. It draws on interviews with league officials, coaches, AD's, and more. I thought it might be of interest to readers on the board:
https://harvardmagazine.com/node/65254
Thanks,
David
I thought that the article was extremely well written and provided an excellent overview of the thought process by the decision makers. I remember hearing Mitch stating that the committee knew that they would not get everything correct the first time and modifications would have to be made.
Personally, I think that the concept of the rotation amongst IL homecourts was the wrong one but a decision to remain at the Palestra would have been even worse for the players and coaches. Coach Jones comments sums it up best as you shared in the article. Clearly, the Palestra is the best venue if the focus is on marketing and exposure but at least the committee put more weight on competitiveness and fairness as well as doing the right thing.
The obvious and best solution would have picked a permenant neutral site. Prudential Center in Newark or Hartford selection site would have made more sense but .... I would not be surprised if they go back to the drawing board once again as it is after all IvyMadness.
Thanks for sharing.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 08:03 AM - Post#282010
In response to bradley
I think it is no coincidence that the first 3 sites they scheduled after the Palestra were Yale, Harvard and Princeton.
And I think it very likely that they will go to a neutral site after that.
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mountainred
Masters Student
Posts: 513
Age: 57
Loc: Charleston, WV
Reg: 04-11-10
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 09:02 AM - Post#282017
In response to palestra38
I think it is no coincidence that the first 3 sites they scheduled after the Palestra were Yale, Harvard and Princeton.
And I think it very likely that they will go to a neutral site after that.
One interesting sentence toward the end: "A committee of coaches and administrators is also examining potential shifts to the current regular-season schedule of back-to-back games on Friday and Saturday nights."
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2138
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 10:31 AM - Post#282029
In response to mountainred
I think it is no coincidence that the first 3 sites they scheduled after the Palestra were Yale, Harvard and Princeton.
And I think it very likely that they will go to a neutral site after that.
One interesting sentence toward the end: "A committee of coaches and administrators is also examining potential shifts to the current regular-season schedule of back-to-back games on Friday and Saturday nights."
SACRILEGE!!!
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 11:25 AM - Post#282044
In response to palestra38
And I think it very likely that they will go to a neutral site after that.
If so, that will really p_ss off Brown, Dartmouth and the Cs.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 11:34 AM - Post#282049
In response to Go Green
If H,Y and Pr (to a slightly lesser extent) want something, they get it.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 01:25 PM - Post#282070
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Yeah... sorry folks, but I've been hearing that too. Some scheduling changes are almost certain to happen, it may stop short of the six back-to-backs, but I understand it's likely those will be impacted in some way.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32809
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 01:32 PM - Post#282072
In response to mrjames
Only the Saturday night games are sacrosanct. If they got rid of Saturday night games in the middle of winter for Sunday afternoon games, I would have to think twice about keeping season tickets---winter days are too short to begin with.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 02:44 PM - Post#282086
In response to palestra38
They already dabbled in this to get games on linear TV on Sunday afternoons, prior to the ESPN+ deal.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-19-19 03:12 PM - Post#282091
In response to Chip Bayers
The debranding process continues.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2138
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-19-19 03:44 PM - Post#282096
In response to SRP
The debranding process continues.
Next stop: anonymous mid-majordom.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 05:46 PM - Post#282128
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Friday/Sunday weekends is not desirable for student athletes. Assume they have to do their work at some point, and traveling from Friday morning through Sunday night for 6 consecutive weeks isn't optimal.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-19-19 05:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-19-19 05:48 PM - Post#282129
In response to weinhauers_ghost
I am creating a separate thread to discuss reforms of the Ivy League schedule.
This thread should remain for discussion of tournament sites.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: Article on Tournament Location
03-19-19 06:57 PM - Post#282140
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I believe in tradition and sometimes I am referred to as a dinosaur but what interests me is how does the IL improve the quality of play and maintain a level playing field.
It seems that injuries are becoming far more common in college sports including the IL. Playing back to back games is not conducive to having healthy athelets let alone non-fatigued athletes. Grown men, NBA, talk about the challenges of playing back to backs. In this era of planes, playing one game during the week and one game on Saturday might well enhance the quality of play.
Although IL players do an incredible job of playing hard too nights in a row, logically it is simply more challenging.
I have no issues in playing on a Tuesday or Wednesday and a Saturday night.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-20-19 12:06 AM - Post#282178
In response to bradley
Oops I read threads out of order, so did comment on Stu's separate thread, but yep I'm with Bradley on this one for sure.
I've often wondered if some of the injuries we've seen in league are a result of the back to backs. I also would kind of like something like a Tues/Weds and Sat game. I have to think players would agree and hopefully it would help keep more guys healthy.
I think we should stick to Sat night, but even as a fan, doing a mid week game just means more basketball to look forward to in a week (rather than condensed games in short period).
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