Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1145
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-18-19 04:07 PM - Post#281945
In response to palestra38
Problem is that there is no money in it. The NIT would be dead if it were not for the fact that the NCAA purchased it and swung both money and publicity its way (I doubt it still makes money on its own). Expanding a money losing tournament to 64 makes no sense.
Is there a reason why the Women's NIT is at 64 teams, but not the Men's NIT?
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 04:12 PM - Post#281946
In response to palestra38
I don't believe there's a LOT of money in it but there is some money in it. IIRC, the NIT is run a lot like the NCAA tournament with all revenues collected by the NIT with certain costs covered and then all of the net revenue distributed to teams based on the number of games played. My understanding is that it's a net positive venture at this point.
Now, if the TV money is covering game-by-game losses, then going to 48 and adding 16 games or 64 and adding 32 games with all/almost all of the incremental inventory going to ESPN+ versus extra linear inventory, then yeah, you'd be hurting the economics by adding more games. Obviously more info would be needed to do a full analysis, but I don't think it's currently money losing...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 04:41 PM - Post#281947
In response to mrjames
It's tough to do such an analysis since it is packaged with NCAA events. Wne it was a stand-alone, it was a big money loser and on the verge of extinction. When you add women's NCAA games and mid-week NIT games to provide in-between NCAA men's coverage, it becomes viable. But if there were a way to squeeze more money out of it, I am sure they would do it.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-18-19 05:50 PM - Post#281954
In response to palestra38
The other tournaments only exist because they can extort money from the schools to cover the profit of the organizers. They are a joke. I understand why teams like Brown and Cornell would want to appear, as I did with Penn when Zack was a senior and they had no recent success. But these games are akin to pre-season travel events. I would just as soon that they disappeared and when we fall short, get ready for next season.
Seriously? You understand why Brown and Cornell would want to appear, but not Penn. Why, because of one NCAA Tournament game appearance in the past dozen years? The seniors should be satisfied with that? Do you really think that next year Penn will magically be better than Harvard, who if healthy could be top 50 nationally, or better? Turn down a CBI bid again next year and you’re telling next year’s seniors (AJ, Dev, etc.,) that they already played in an NCAA Tournament game and don’t need to participate in the CBI. This year’s team had 3 wins against NCAA Tournament bound teams. Reward them. When’s the last time that happened here?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 06:03 PM - Post#281956
In response to 13otto
What's your point? I am sure the team consulted with the players. Playing a garbage game after all they went through may be appealing to you, but this team has nothing left. They got to the NCAAs and the freshmen who might benefit from the feel of another game are out. So there is no point whatsoever, especially to lay out $30,000 or more.
So yes, it makes a difference to Cornell and Brown and not to us.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-18-19 08:47 PM - Post#281969
In response to palestra38
My point is that I don't take good Penn teams and good seasons for granted. When we finally have one, keep playing until we can't. I recall Princeton going in 2012, the year following their narrow 59-57 loss to Kentucky in the NCAAs, as well as in 2010 & 2014. I enjoyed watching Zack Rosen & company play two additional games in 2012, and I'd enjoy watching Antonio, AJ, Max, Dev, Jake and the others play another game or two together. It's not like they're all returning next season.
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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Penn declines post-season tournament
03-18-19 09:14 PM - Post#281973
In response to Go Green
Problem is that there is no money in it. The NIT would be dead if it were not for the fact that the NCAA purchased it and swung both money and publicity its way (I doubt it still makes money on its own). Expanding a money losing tournament to 64 makes no sense.
Is there a reason why the Women's NIT is at 64 teams, but not the Men's NIT?
Whatever the WNIT's motives are, the event isn't run by the NCAA. It's run by a different entity, a marketing firm in Colorado. The firm also runs the in-season MTEs in Cancun, Mexico.
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
Edited by DCAJedi on 03-18-19 09:16 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 09:19 PM - Post#281974
In response to 13otto
We disagree, and I'll leave it at that.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-19 09:45 PM - Post#281982
In response to 13otto
That pretty much sums up how I felt when I originally saw we wouldn’t accept one.
Would be interesting to see what the players thought... if they didn’t really want to do it, I would respect that decision. If Penn just didn’t want to pay for it, I wouldn’t respect that decision. Unfortunately doubt we will ever know one way or another.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-19 11:08 PM - Post#281991
In response to Mike Porter
The players were not asked from what I hear. And what player, if asked if they want to play more games, would ever say no? That makes no sense.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Penn declines post-season tournament
03-18-19 11:34 PM - Post#281999
In response to PennFan10
If the players weren’t asked and we declined due to money, then that’s complete crap in my view. I would have enjoyed watching these guys play more games and as I said before, I think they could have done some damage in CBI.
I personally didn’t think the players would have said no if asked. I was reacting to sentiments earlier in the thread that made some suggestions that perhaps they had been asked/polled. If they felt they didn’t want to do it because they made the NCAAs last year and didn’t quite meet that goal (not for lack of effort or grit), then I would have respected that, even though I’d pick more games.
Thanks for sharing... if there are any DP Sports writers readinf, now would be a good time to ask players what they think on the record and if they would have wanted to play more games, and follow that up with questions to Grace Calhoun. Failing to support your top program to play post season games after all those seniors did to help revive the program sure doesn’t sound like something “Athletic Director of the Year†would do.
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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Penn declines post-season tournament
03-19-19 12:24 AM - Post#282002
In response to Mike Porter
If you are hearing things and posting about them behind an alias, that's your right on this board, but you're also welcome to contact the DP sports writers that Mike alluded to. Or other outlets, Ãf you're so inclined.
Or not, if you don't want to. Totally up to you.
But I did ask Steve in person - in fact, I wasn't the only one who asked - and put his answer in my story.
I plead guilty to not asking any players. I also plead guilty to not knowing what the cost of buying a home game in the CBI or CIT (or WNIT) is, though I would note that as has been written by others here, that money ends up in someone else's pocket.
Having not asked the players, I don't presume to know what they think. If the players want to play, that's one thing. And if the seniors wish to enjoy the final weeks of their final semester, that's also one thing.
If I can glean anything in the coming days, I'll report it, and I'm sure the DP reporters would say the same.
Until then, as I said, I'm not going to presume to know what they think.
(I realize you may read this post as being written in an ill-tempered tone... that is not my intent at all. And I realize I have an alias on here too. I'm just trying to back up what I was told.)
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
Edited by DCAJedi on 03-19-19 12:27 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Penn declines post-season tournament
03-19-19 01:52 AM - Post#282003
In response to DCAJedi
Hello, hello - FYI my note wasn’t a knock against you or your reporting of this at all. I wouldn’t even know there was an official choice to skip the other post season tournaments had I not read your tweet/article.
Personally it’s a little odd that we chose to skip, I’d rather see more games and 20 wins still means something and think we could have won more games. Would be curious to hear players view but realistically it also isn’t likely a player would say something that could be perceived negatively.
That said, Princeton also opted out, so 3rd and 4th place Ivy teams called it a wrap while 5th and 6th are still playing.
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pennhoops
Postdoc
Posts: 2470
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-19-19 09:51 AM - Post#282021
In response to mrjames
it's a nice idea but why would the ncaa compete against itself?
Frankly I'd rather see the NIT expanded to 64. I know this flies in the face of the narrative out there, but there are a lot of good major programs that still get left out of the NIT that would play in that tournament. They then (mostly) refuse to play in the CBI (and can't play in the CIT) along with the top mid major programs (BYU/USF/Penn/Fresno St/etc), creating a pretty sizeable gap between the last at large NIT selection and the average CBI/CIT participant.
I'd love to see very deserving mids get more shots at still pretty good major programs. An expanded NIT could provide that and bring some merit back to a college basketball postseason that has shifted rewards from teams in the 75-125 space to those in the 125-250 spot.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1120
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-19-19 10:25 PM - Post#282157
In response to pennhoops
Many many years ago deep in the bowls of Hutch Irv Mondschein looked at me and said, "Noel this is a university not a YMCA. Looks like Grace or Steve is saying the same thing.
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