Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-19-19 06:07 PM - Post#282133
A committee exists to review Ivy basketball scheduling practices in light of the change in the Princeton exam schedule. These changes would not be for next year, but would start in the 2020-21 season.
The committee consists of Mike Martin, Steve Donahue, Allison Guth (Yale), Belle Koclanes (Dartmouth) and the athletic director from Princeton.
The main concern is finding games to play in January. Right now, other conferences have begun league play and it is difficult to find Division 1 opponents other than the Ivy travel partner. This is not as much of an issue for the Penn men and women (who are able to schedule Big 5 games in January), but it is a big problem elsewhere.
With it becoming possible to start the league schedule in January, it will not be necessary to compress 12 games into a six week window. Single game weekends can be scheduled, travel partner games can take place on a Saturday in February, travel partners can be changed, etc . . .
I have heard that the women would like to play more doubleheaders with the men instead of always being at the opposite site.
There would be the flexibility to move the tournament up a week earlier, so the finals would not be on the men's Selection Sunday. However, ESPN will have a major say in the scheduling of the tournament.
Anybody want to put ideas on the table?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-19-19 06:16 PM - Post#282136
In response to Stuart Suss
Awesome!
Explains why so many Div III/Canadian games in January.
Also, holding the tournament a week earlier may allow teams to better handle exam schedules and students to attend. I believe all 4 Tournament participants were on break this year.
A lot to look at. Hopefully some of these and other things can be addressed and improved upon.
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digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 466
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
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03-19-19 06:24 PM - Post#282137
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I'd consider giving up Ivy League Friday nights way worse than the existence of a tournament.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3615
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-19-19 11:57 PM - Post#282174
In response to digamma
I'd like to see less back to back Fri/Sat Ivy weekends to be honest. I've wondered over the years if that was a factor in some of the injury problems we've seen in league as that is a lot to ask and no one else does it for a reason.
Not sure if everything is on the table, but if doing less back to backs (even one or two less would be good), I'd sign up for that - I like Patriot League scheduling of Weds/Sat for example.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21086
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-20-19 12:09 AM - Post#282179
In response to Mike Porter
How about making sure that Penn-Princeton games are not scheduled during student breaks?
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-20-19 12:16 AM - Post#282180
In response to penn nation
Nor the Tournament
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3044
Reg: 10-20-14
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03-20-19 08:50 AM - Post#282188
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I am in favor of more men's and women's doubleheaders, since it is always great to see 2 games in one night and bring more fans to the games.
I am in favor of keeping games to Friday and/or Saturday. I think Sunday games will have decreased attendance, since many fans will be watching football in January & early February and most will have family obligations & chores across the entire season. In addition, in case of inclement weather, the Sunday game will have to be moved to Monday, which seems more difficult than the present option.
Once the Princeton calendar changes, it certainly frees up a few extra weekends for the league schedule. Looking at this year's calendar, the league started on Saturday 1/5 and finished on Saturday 3/2. This would have given the league 9 weekends. I'm sure it is not this simple, but there could have been alternating weekends of a Saturday only game with the traditional back-to-backs. This would account for 13 games. The extra could be a single mid-week game for the travel partners.
Anyway, just some thoughts .....
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-20-19 10:38 AM - Post#282196
In response to rbg
I think it's well past time to move away from the back-to-backs.
From even 15 years ago, pace is up about 5-7 possessions per game or roughly 10% more possessions. The athleticism and physical demands from each game are much higher than they were. More games are competitive, which is requiring starters to play more minutes.
This is all a recipe for more injuries that can hurt the quality of the product that we have to make an impact on the national stage at the end of the year.
I think it's the right move to explore moving away from the back-to-backs.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3765
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-20-19 10:48 AM - Post#282197
In response to mrjames
I really love the idea of M/W doubleheaders. And I agree that reducing the number of Friday/Saturday back-to-backs would be beneficial.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3044
Reg: 10-20-14
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03-20-19 10:58 AM - Post#282199
In response to mrjames
I certainly see your point.
I guess my thought process was to try and split the difference. Reduce the stress on the athletes, while giving the fans a more enjoyable schedule.
Looking at this past season, I made a mistake. There were 10 weekends, not 9. With 10 weekends, there could be 6 weekends of a Saturday only game with 4 weekends of back-to-backs. Within those dates, there could be as many men/women doubleheaders as the league would want.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32685
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-20-19 11:12 AM - Post#282203
In response to rbg
What would make sense is that the northern teams play the Southern teams on a back to back (or Friday-Sunday, which I would hate as a season ticket holder unless the Sunday game was a night game, which is unlikely) and that they play each other on a single game basis during the week. Problem is Cornell.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1124
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Ivy League schedule reform 03-20-19 11:57 AM - Post#282209
In response to Stuart Suss
travel partners can be changed
This was a very popular proposal back in the days when the Ps were dominating everyone else.
But what would it accomplish today?
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4894
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-20-19 02:37 PM - Post#282221
In response to Go Green
The injury argument seems silly. Are there more guys getting hurt on Saturday? Pace is under the control of the teams, as well.
No one has discussed the academic rationale for the current schedule Do we have evidence that this is less important now than in the past?
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-20-19 02:53 PM - Post#282222
In response to SRP
The injury argument isn’t silly at all. It’s actually pretty sound science. Players are at more risk of injury the more strain they’re under.
Pace is somewhat under the control of the teams, but we started the back-to-backs when the shot clock was 45 seconds. Now it’s 30. There’s only so slow you can play now.
Listen, I’d much rather have MTEs be every year as a top priority to fix versus this aspect of the schedule. But it’s a worthwhile venture.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3580
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-20-19 03:21 PM - Post#282229
In response to SRP
The injury facts are very real. Have you seen the guys who are out at the end of the year on every team? Yale had a mean reverting injury year but that's about it. The back to backs are difficult for the players and coaches. Much more so than in the past.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1124
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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03-20-19 03:26 PM - Post#282231
In response to mrjames
Pace is somewhat under the control of the teams, but we started the back-to-backs when the shot clock was 45 seconds. Now it’s 30. There’s only so slow you can play now.
Bring back the traditional Princeton Offense!
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2685
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-20-19 04:06 PM - Post#282243
In response to Go Green
The back to backs are great for some fans. I travel to Cambridge for the 3 weekends of back to backs there. Don't attend single games. It seems to be the opposite for students and the band though. Hard enough to convince Ivy students to be spectators at all, but filling up their Friday and Saturday evenings is a stretch.
Injuries are a real issue, especially for freshmen. Depth is a difference maker under the current scheduling.
If we end to limit the back to backs, should we play the tournament (or part of it) on Friday/Sunday?
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3988
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-20-19 04:10 PM - Post#282245
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
There would be additional costs in limiting back to backs. There might be a plus to limiting the # of Saturday night Ivy Refs.
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 149
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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03-20-19 04:45 PM - Post#282252
In response to SRP
Thank you. Was wondering when someone might remind people that this is a league for real student-athletes and we fans don't dictate the extracurricular rules. The back-to-backs have worked for 60 years, and now the women appear to embrace the concept, playing the same school at the other's home court.
ECAC hockey seems to survive back-to-backs on the ice as well. There are valid points here on January scheduling however, and hope they can be worked out.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-20-19 06:17 PM - Post#282260
In response to Naismith
I don’t think anyone is suggesting the fans dictate the rules. More than anything, I’m trying to handicap what I suspect will happen, and I get the sense that there is growing frustration amongst those actually involved with the games with the back-to-back format.
With the opportunity to space out the games comes the opportunity to abandon the six back-to-back weekends without burdening the students unnecessarily (and potentially helping matters by removing some pretty awful weekends from around mid-term time). If it’s possible, it’s should be explored, and I commend the league for doing so.
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