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Username Post: Another cut at next year        (Topic#22960)
weinhauers_ghost 
Postdoc
Posts: 2125

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
Re: Another cut at next year
03-25-19 08:07 PM - Post#282707    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
And we'll gain some more personality as well. Frankly, if we have to play a guy as limited as Rothschild was (over 18 min/p/g and 4 pts, 3 rebounds---his 1.8 assists are good) or Silpe (25 min/p/g and 6.3 pts and 1.3 assists) next year, I would be very disappointed. These are middle of the pack Ivy guys in their senior season. Really no better than Dartmouth sends out there (no insult to Dartmouth).

Haven't heard or read any Jeff2sf posts here lately, but back when he was a mere excitable boy here, he would go nuts if you made the comment that we would miss leadership from guys who collectively cannot give you better than 10 points per game in regular minutes.




Leadership is about much more than points scored. There have been many teams over the history of the game whose leading scorers weren't "leaders". Look, we're interested outsiders, a few of whom might have a little more insight into the character of the team than most of us do. What we don't always see are the intangibles that enable a player to become a leader. Some are vocal leaders. Others lead by example. Some need time to find their voice and grow into leadership.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-25-19 08:25 PM - Post#282712    
    In response to weinhauers_ghost

In Betley, Penn gets the single biggest lift out of anyone in the IL coming back from injury (Harvard's baseline status is much higher to begin with). Penn had no-one they could rely on, game in game out, to be a consistent outside shooter this year.

That alone is a big, big game changer on offense. The fact that Betley can also score in a variety of other ways, in addition to opening the floor up for Brodeur...the offense will improve, period. Betley with Brodeur and the improved Goodman--that will be fun to watch.

Defense may experience some growing pains.

 
SteveChop 
PhD Student
Posts: 1150

Reg: 07-28-07
Re: Another cut at next year
03-25-19 09:03 PM - Post#282715    
    In response to penn nation

I am a huge Ryan Betley fan. What we have to keep in mind is that the injury he suffered is one where recovery time is often a long one. In any event, he will not have played competitively for a year and while I am confident that he will be able to step back into the lineup, a period of readjustment would not be unforeseeable and we should be prepared for that.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-25-19 09:31 PM - Post#282717    
    In response to Buckeye Quake

I don’t see the addition by subtraction on defense. Silpe was easily our third best perimeter defender, and he was often Woods’ backup against Oni, Cambridge, Stevens, and Goodman’s backup against Morgan. There was a big drop off down to any of the guard backups on the defensive end, at least after Washington hit the freshman wall.

Similarly, the stretch run where we played better defense happened in part because we got Max back in the lineup. He was limited by injury, but he still was our second best big defensively, again by a pretty wide margin. Simmons may end up being an improvement overall next season, but he will need to get better (and more consistent) to get there.

 
weinhauers_ghost 
Postdoc
Posts: 2125

Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
Re: Another cut at next year
03-25-19 11:48 PM - Post#282770    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
I don’t see the addition by subtraction on defense. Silpe was easily our third best perimeter defender, and he was often Woods’ backup against Oni, Cambridge, Stevens, and Goodman’s backup against Morgan. There was a big drop off down to any of the guard backups on the defensive end, at least after Washington hit the freshman wall.

Similarly, the stretch run where we played better defense happened in part because we got Max back in the lineup. He was limited by injury, but he still was our second best big defensively, again by a pretty wide margin. Simmons may end up being an improvement overall next season, but he will need to get better (and more consistent) to get there.



I hope Simmons commits himself to continuing to get better over the summer. Imagine him making a leap similar to the one Aririguzoh made prior to this season. Mind you, I think Simmons starts from a higher skill level, but he's going to have to put it all together and be ready to play consistently and with confidence next year.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32682

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 06:12 AM - Post#282773    
    In response to weinhauers_ghost

"Similarly, the stretch run where we played better defense happened in part because we got Max back in the lineup"

Well, in the last 5 games, when we clearly stepped up the defense, Max didn't start until the last two and really didn't have all that much of an impact. Yes, he made some good passes, but he also made some mind-numbing bad ones (I remember a blind behind the back pass in the Brown game when it was tight that went right into the stands). He could not get off his feet and was stuffed pretty much 2 or 3 times a game. I think your conclusion isn't backed by the facts. It was more that Antonio, Silpe and Goodman locked down on the opposing guards and AJ was doing his thing. We certainly will miss Antonio and I don't see anyone able to play defense at his level. But the other two, while solid Quakers, are replaceable immediately and our added offense should make up for the lost defense. I've always been a fan of senior leadership in the Ivies--we'll have plenty of it next year.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 08:47 AM - Post#282778    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
And we'll gain some more personality as well. Frankly, if we have to play a guy as limited as Rothschild was (over 18 min/p/g and 4 pts, 3 rebounds---his 1.8 assists are good) or Silpe (25 min/p/g and 6.3 pts and 1.3 assists) next year, I would be very disappointed.


I don’t see (yet) where the leadership/perasonality gains come from. It’s not like Betley was not present this year. The program has had the benefit of some extraordinary personalities in this senior class with Max, Jake and Antonio. That benefit comes on and off the court. This team, as we have noted many times, was very resilient. Often digging itself out of holes that other teams could not. Those 3 had a lot to do with that. I hope and expect the underclassmen to step up but these graduates leave quite a void to fill.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32682

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 08:51 AM - Post#282779    
    In response to Streamers

We needed to replace far more after last season. Graduation losses are part of basketball. Having Betley back (and it is completely different when a guy is not playing due to injury) will bring a personality injection. But talent is more important than anything else and we will be a more talented team next year.

 
section110 
Masters Student
Posts: 847

Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 09:17 AM - Post#282783    
    In response to Streamers

True, but we thought there would be a huge leadership gap when Foreman graduated and the guys you referenced stepped up. I would expect the same from AJ, Goodman & Betley. I think the coaching staff has set this culture.

 
AsiaSunset 
Postdoc
Posts: 4350

Reg: 11-21-04
03-26-19 09:38 AM - Post#282784    
    In response to section110

"I don’t see (yet) where the leadership/perasonality gains come from. It’s not like Betley was not present this year. The program has had the benefit of some extraordinary personalities in this senior class with Max, Jake and Antonio. That benefit comes on and off the court. This team, as we have noted many times, was very resilient. Often digging itself out of holes that other teams could not. Those 3 had a lot to do with that. I hope and expect the underclassmen to step up but these graduates leave quite a void to fill."

I totally agree. While I think team grit was apparent throughout the entirety of the team and the program, and I'm confident leadership will not be a problem next year, to measure the impact of the seniors by their production numbers alone does them a big disservice. This was a great group and we should all recognize their tremendous contribution to the program, which far exceeded their individual talent levels.

I do believe Steve is improving the talent level each year and that's very important to competing at the top, but the biggest change in Penn basketball since the lean years after Fran departed is the team cohesiveness and the very visible effort all these guys put into it, night in and night out. Hats off to Max, Jake, Antonio, Jackson and Tyler. They were a fun group to root for and will be missed. But - that's what happens. We have to say goodbye to players every year.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32682

Reg: 11-21-04
03-26-19 09:48 AM - Post#282785    
    In response to AsiaSunset

Of course, I have been highly complementary of the play of the seniors and supported Steve's decision to go "All Dunphy" and play the seniors down the stretch so as to make fewer mistakes. I just think the talent level will improve sufficiently next year and I expect full season performance from Wang and Washington such that we should be a clear step up next year.

Losing AJ and Goodman (if he is as good as I think he will be next year) will be tough to replace in a single season. But as you note, that is the nature of college basketball.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 11:58 AM - Post#282793    
    In response to section110

  • section110 Said:
True, but we thought there would be a huge leadership gap when Foreman graduated and the guys you referenced stepped up. I would expect the same from AJ, Goodman & Betley. I think the coaching staff has set this culture.


I'm counting on it.

I think watching the NCAA games featuring teams with lots of talent, but suspect teamwork and lacking resilience under pressure has reminded me of how important these qualities are in a program.

 
Buckeye Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1601

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 02:05 PM - Post#282795    
    In response to PennFan10


Aren't all of our statements "general". As for why Donahue went with Max you'd have to ask him. It's a question I asked myself often this season. If the limited minutes Simmons was given "wasn't adding value" I would like to have seen him given more time to develop and contribute as his upside seemed to be much higher than Max's. I don't think I'm alone with that sentiment. I expect, check that, I hope next year will bear that out.
I don't want to disparage Jake in any way but if we don't presently or will not next year have anyone better then him at that position we're in for a long year. If we want to compete at the level where the upper echelon of this league is now, we need better than mid level Ivy caliber players. Let's face it, Jake was playing starter minutes because of injuries. Unless all the talk of missing Betley and Williams was just that. Talk.



 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 03:31 PM - Post#282810    
    In response to palestra38

I don’t disagree. Max turned it over way too much OOC. We should be able to find more offense from his spot and from Jake’s. Was just objecting to the specific comment about defense — I think Donahue went with his best defensive team as the league season went on.

I was really happy with Jake this year defensively. Oddly, in prior years I tended to disagree with those who spoke highly of his defense. This year he looked much, much better, in part because he added bulk and in part because he was willing to get in guys’ grills even if it meant getting called for fouls.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32682

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Another cut at next year
03-26-19 03:49 PM - Post#282816    
    In response to SomeGuy

I agree. He had by far his best year this year. And Donahue was comfortable with him on the court. Only problem was that he was a middle of the road Ivy talent and when up against someone with much greater quickness, he was exposed---luckily, with Goodman and Woods, that didn't happen that often.


Kind of reminded me of Charlie Copp's last season in '03-'04. Came out of nowhere to average over 7 points a game and play solid senior ball.

 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1877

Reg: 11-29-04
03-26-19 04:43 PM - Post#282826    
    In response to palestra38

I was very happy to see Silpe find a role with the team in his last year. Every indication is that he was a positive member of the team despite falling short of many of our expectations. His senior year will give him plenty to be proud of and many lifetime memories.

I think everyone is underestimating what Max meant to the team. It seems clear to me that he was a hard worker, a culture setter, and had good mental toughness. While he had mixed impact through his career, I think he was a big part of the early success of the team this year - and his injury was a big part of its struggles. He was certainly willing to do dirty work and he kept his aggressiveness and composure generally.

I don't doubt that he's replaceable. But I think we would have made more noise if he had stayed healthy - especially in the Princeton games.

Hope Betley has a great recovery!


 
pennhoops 
Postdoc
Posts: 2470

Reg: 11-21-04
04-15-19 01:45 PM - Post#283659    
    In response to Penndemonium

Bart Torvik's preseason projections have Penn at 50 nationally. (Harvard is 36.)

 
SteveChop 
PhD Student
Posts: 1150

Reg: 07-28-07
04-15-19 03:33 PM - Post#283665    
    In response to pennhoops

From his pen to the court!


 
Silver Maple 
Postdoc
Posts: 3765

Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
04-15-19 06:35 PM - Post#283666    
    In response to SteveChop

I'll have whatever Bart's having.



 
PennFan10 
Postdoc
Posts: 3578

Reg: 02-15-15
04-16-19 10:45 AM - Post#283680    
    In response to Silver Maple

  • Silver Maple Said:
I'll have whatever Bart's having.





Two please.


 
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