QHoops
Senior
Posts: 369
Reg: 12-16-04
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07-11-19 08:42 PM - Post#285774
In the Inky article - there was this nugget:
"Betley is eligible for a fifth season, but only as a graduate transfer."
That already seemed like the most likely outcome, but this suggests that this year is definitively his last as a Quaker.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 586
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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07-12-19 06:56 AM - Post#285784
In response to QHoops
why only as a graduate transfer?
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-12-19 08:51 AM - Post#285786
In response to Charlie Fog
I believe it's a league rule. Steve was pretty definitive about it when he told me.
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-12-19 08:51 AM - Post#285787
In response to Charlie Fog
To be eligible for a 5th year you either need to have withdrawn from the school for the academic year or be in an academic program requiring 5 years to graduate.
I guess Betley doesn't qualify for either - or has decided he wants the grad transfer and didn't want to qualify for either.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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Betley
07-12-19 08:55 AM - Post#285788
In response to TheLine
It's possible that he and his family didn't want to pay for a fifth year of Ivy League education. They might also be interested in getting one free year of graduate school.
I wish Ivies would allow one year of grad school for players who still have eligibility remaining. Anybody know the rationale for not permitting this? Knowing the Ivy League, I'm sure the reason is extremely well-thought-out.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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07-12-19 08:56 AM - Post#285789
In response to TheLine
To be eligible for a 5th year you either need to have withdrawn from the school for the academic year or be in an academic program requiring 5 years to graduate.
I guess Betley doesn't qualify for either - or has decided he wants the grad transfer and didn't want to qualify for either.
If he takes his fifth year at Villanova, I'm going to write him a strongly worded letter.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Betley
07-12-19 10:52 AM - Post#285794
In response to Silver Maple
In the 10th semester you only need to take one course.
There are many possibilities, including financial considerations, but the academic part is not hard to juggle to permit a 5th year. And - there is a possibility the article made an assumption that is not correct.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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07-12-19 11:04 AM - Post#285797
In response to AsiaSunset
It isn't hard to juggle at Penn if you want to.
It is also easy to decide to not juggle. It's nice to get a degree in 4 years and then get a year of graduate level education while on an athletic scholarship.
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Betley
07-12-19 12:41 PM - Post#285802
In response to AsiaSunset
In the 10th semester you only need to take one course.
There are many possibilities, including financial considerations, but the academic part is not hard to juggle to permit a 5th year. And - there is a possibility the article made an assumption that is not correct.
It is certainly possible, but what I wrote was what Steve told me directly. If it turns out to be wrong there will be ample opportunities to report that.
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
Edited by DCAJedi on 07-12-19 12:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-12-19 01:11 PM - Post#285807
In response to DCAJedi
Thanks for the article and update Jon!
Still such a shame about JW... to have to do that rehab 3X sounds maddening, but clearly sounds very motivated. Hope he can get back if even just to prove to himself he can.
Yeah, it’s definitely possible for Betley to find a way to stay 5th year and I was hoping he would be the one to break the mold and do it, but taking what Coach Donahue said, that probably just means Betley is not planning to set up his coursework to take the 5th year at Penn path.
Can’t fault him when his options would basically be paying for the privilege to do more class work that he doesn’t really need OR get paid to play at a higher level (his skills will be in high demand) and chance to do advanced class work.
If Ivy’s got rid of dumb and archaic rule that the kids can’t do graduate work, maybe you could make some kind of argument, but otherwise don’t see it.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Betley
07-12-19 01:12 PM - Post#285808
In response to DCAJedi
P.S. If you get a chance to talk to Coach Donahue again, would sure be good to get an update on Mike Wang’s health since he seemed to have real issues playing for China this summer...
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Betley
07-12-19 01:52 PM - Post#285810
In response to Mike Porter
Mike beat me to the question about Wang.
As for Betley, I actually see this as a potential win-win. Sure, another year from Ryan sounds great; but I really doubt that's his best option. The program has several wings coming in that could, either alone or in some combination, fill Ryan's shoes. This will free up minutes for them.
I'm much more concerned about this coming season, which should have been a top-cycle team, losing their PG and not having Wang at full strength.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Betley
07-12-19 07:18 PM - Post#285825
In response to Streamers
I'm much more concerned about this coming season, which should have been a top-cycle team, losing their PG and not having Wang at full strength.
Not sure how accurate it is to say “...losing their PG†when its someone who never played for us.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Betley
07-12-19 08:48 PM - Post#285828
In response to PennFan10
Yeah, I'm really bummed about JW for sure, but not sure I agree with him as our PG either. Honestly, after second ACL, I came from perspective of anything he could give us would be great, but not counting on it.
I had envisioned Dev being starting in that position based on him stepping up big time last year on both ends of the court (and hopefully coming back even better for senior year). He ended up playing most minutes of anyone on the team last season.
I will say, it was great to hear the early high praise for Jordan Dingle though and hopefully a good sign of things to come.
My biggest health concerns are in order:
1) Betley - can he truly get back to 100% this year?
2) Wang - what is going on with his health? We know he got shut down end of last year and his summer time with Team China only adds to concerns on his health. The difference between healthy Mike Wang and unhealthy Mike Wang was the different between winning the Big 5 and barely making the Ivy tournament...
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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07-12-19 10:08 PM - Post#285831
In response to Mike Porter
I'm a little mystified that Goodman is not being called our PG. I think he's more of a PG than SG. He probably is our only guard with enough handles under pressure right now. If Dingle is ready, that would be fantastic. I don't see a Dingle / Goodman backcourt as being a dominant one in the league, but we've somehow managed the last two years with an unconventional backcourt that doesn't shoot the well, but shoots a lot of threes anyway.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-12-19 10:24 PM - Post#285834
In response to Penndemonium
This is from DCAJedi (Jon's) recent article in the Inky:
The injury will have a big impact on Penn’s point guard depth chart. Williams was in line to be the starter this season after the graduations of Antonio Woods and Jake Silpe. Donahue said the job may now go to incoming freshman Jordan Dingle, a northern New Jersey native from Blair Academy.
It is consistent with just about everything I have read and heard on the subject. Goodman can play PG but playing with Woods made them interchangeable 1-2 guards. Although he has improved as a distributor, it is not his strength and takes away from his ability to score inside and out. Think back to how effective he was as a 2 when playing with Darnell and Jake.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Betley
07-12-19 10:33 PM - Post#285835
In response to Streamers
Totally get your point on that from traditional PG perspective and agree that’s not what Goodman. Honestly Woods was not one either and didn’t create that much for others, but Donahue’s system doesn’t require it to work.
I should clarify my point in that I envisioned (and still envision) Goodman starting in the 1 spot with Washington and Betley filling out 2 and 3 spots. There is a lot to like with that 3 starting in both a shooting and defense perspective.
Further into the article Donahue also covers this from system perspective:
“I have great confidence in the kid,†Donahue said. “I also think we’ve got a lot of experience around him, and we don’t rely on a typical system where the point guard runs the show and gets 200 assists. Our leading assist guy last year was [big man] AJ Brodeur. ... Everybody passes. dribbles and shoots, and I think Jordan can really do a good job in that system.â€
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-12-19 10:36 PM - Post#285836
In response to Mike Porter
For the record, I would much rather have JW than not and do think we’d be better with him healthy. I guess I’m just not as worried about traditional PG. Let’s see if I feel that way later this year, haha!
I do have high hopes for Dingle though so if he can bring a Washington-like frosh campaign but from a PG perspective do think we will be better for it.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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07-13-19 12:43 AM - Post#285838
In response to Streamers
Whoa. I disagree with a few points. Between Woods and Goodman, I always considered Goodman the PG. I accept that Donahue's system is a bit position less, but Goodman was our ball handler and would initiate our offense when he was out there.
I also thought Goodman was very strong at the end of the season (not the beginning), and better than he was with Darnell and Jake.
This is from DCAJedi (Jon's) recent article in the Inky:
It is consistent with just about everything I have read and heard on the subject. Goodman can play PG but playing with Woods made them interchangeable 1-2 guards. Although he has improved as a distributor, it is not his strength and takes away from his ability to score inside and out. Think back to how effective he was as a 2 when playing with Darnell and Jake.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-13-19 08:02 AM - Post#285839
In response to Penndemonium
We have seen Steve’s offense with a traditional 1-2 setup with Jake out there and without it the rest of the time. What matters most at that end is who brings up the ball when protecting a lead at the end of a game, and I’m pretty sure Goodman will be doing that based on what we know now. Where position matters a lot more is on the defensive end when managing matchups. Here, Dev is the man when it is time to cover the really quick PGs they see. If DIngle contributes, all the netter but look for Bryce to cover the bigger guards as long as he is shooting well. I’m not expecting Ryan to spend much time as a 2.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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07-13-19 01:59 PM - Post#285841
In response to Streamers
Regarding Betley, I'm extremely gratified he's officially cleared to play now. Based on some stuff I had read recently, I was under the impression that he might not be fully cleared until after the start of the season, so this gives me a lot more confidence that he actually might be a major contributor this season.
As for Dingle, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Donahue proven correct every time he's publicly said that a kid will start as a freshman and be a good player? I don't pretend to know what to expect from any of the freshmen, but it's nice to see the coach showing such enthusiasm.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-13-19 05:05 PM - Post#285843
In response to Silver Maple
To be honest, I think he was a bit too optimistic about Washington last year, at least publicly, as things played out.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1899
Reg: 11-29-04
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07-14-19 01:16 AM - Post#285851
In response to Streamers
Right, but if Goodman is bringing the ball up at the end and is defending the PG, isn't he pretty much the PG?
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-14-19 08:11 AM - Post#285852
In response to Penndemonium
Right, but if Goodman is bringing the ball up at the end and is defending the PG, isn't he pretty much the PG?
Sure, if that’s how it plays out. My point was that I don’t think being a pure PG is optimal for Dev’s game and that I don’t think we will see Betley in the backcourt much.
We also need to consider the overall backcourt depth and defensive skills. Woods durability and defense spoiled us. We will need the underclass men to step up and fill that void.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-14-19 08:27 PM - Post#285877
In response to Silver Maple
Regarding Betley, I'm extremely gratified he's officially cleared to play now. Based on some stuff I had read recently, I was under the impression that he might not be fully cleared until after the start of the season, so this gives me a lot more confidence that he actually might be a major contributor this season.
Maybe I am being too conservative but I didn't read anywhere he is officially cleared to play. Here is the quote from the article:
There is good news elsewhere on the roster: Shooting guard Ryan Betley is fully healthy after rupturing the patellar tendon in his right knee five minutes into last season’s opening game. The Downingtown native was Penn’s top scorer in the 2017-18 campaign, and was sorely missed on the court and in the locker room.
There may be a difference between a doctor saying he is officially cleared to play and him being fully healthy per his coach.
Our esteemed author may have updated information but I have not heard Betley is officially cleared by doctors. I expect he will be at some point but I am not sure that has happened yet.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3052
Reg: 10-20-14
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07-14-19 08:35 PM - Post#285878
In response to PennFan10
Jon Rothstein's tweet from July 11th
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1 149370902...
- Penn's Ryan Betley (knee) has been fully cleared for all basketball related activities, per Steve Donahue. -
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-14-19 08:38 PM - Post#285879
In response to rbg
I gotta get a twitter account!
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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07-14-19 09:40 PM - Post#285883
In response to Streamers
To be honest, I think he was a bit too optimistic about Washington last year, at least publicly, as things played out.
Not sure I agree. Washington was great last season until he got hurt. Also, it's not at all unusual for freshmen to hit the wall towards the end of the season. I think it's likely that next season, now that he's more acclimated to the college game, the physical nature of the play and the length of the season, he'll hold up better.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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07-14-19 10:44 PM - Post#285885
In response to Streamers
We really didn’t see the traditional 1-2 much at all last year — Jake was off the ball almost exclusively. Woods and Goodman were basically combo guards when together. Jake obviously could serve as another ball handler when necessary, but that really wasn’t his role.
Yes we did see more traditional pure PG from Jake as a freshman under Donahue. But we really haven’t seen it since.
I think Goodman will be the PG this year, perhaps with Dingle in a combo role.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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07-14-19 11:54 PM - Post#285887
In response to SomeGuy
Washington is going to be a stud. I would bet on him having a great year. He is a workhorse type of player, always in the gym working on his shot and his game. That usually translates well.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-15-19 12:23 PM - Post#285905
In response to Silver Maple
Not sure I agree. Washington was great last season until he got hurt. Also, it's not at all unusual for freshmen to hit the wall towards the end of the season. I think it's likely that next season, now that he's more acclimated to the college game, the physical nature of the play and the length of the season, he'll hold up better.
I mostly agree here, except for the part where Washington was 'great' before the injury. He was pretty good for a freshman. He is also a streak shooter (you could always tell what kind of a night he was going to have when he hoisted a 3 on his first possession) and all that goes with that. I think we all hope he will develop into the kind of combo guard that can play alongside Dev, but Steve knows he needs additional depth and matchup options in the backcourt.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8236
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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07-15-19 12:37 PM - Post#285907
In response to SomeGuy
We really didn’t see the traditional 1-2 much at all last year — Jake was off the ball almost exclusively. Woods and Goodman were basically combo guards when together. Jake obviously could serve as another ball handler when necessary, but that really wasn’t his role.
Yes we did see more traditional pure PG from Jake as a freshman under Donahue. But we really haven’t seen it since.
My recollection is toward the end of last year, especially when protecting a lead near the end of games, we saw Jake bringing the ball up when he was out there, which was often. Regardless, it's my sense that SD, like most coaches, wants someone he can trust in that role specifically, especially if he is a reliable FT shooter - or am I asking too much there?
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