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Username Post: Harvard wins Affirmative Action Suit        (Topic#23335)
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
10-01-19 05:04 PM - Post#288117    

Good news.

https://www.inquirer.com/politics/nation/feder al-j...

Of course, this will be appealed.

 
H78 
PhD Student
Posts: 1458
H78
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 01-06-11
Re: Harvard wins Affirmative Action Suit
10-01-19 10:23 PM - Post#288126    
    In response to palestra38

This is a positive sign for all Ivies and Seven Sister colleges, which recruit and admit classes in similar fashions. My recommendation is to read the Conclusion (VIII. CONCLUSION) where Brown's ex-president Ruth Simmons is quoted from the trial in a very powerful statement about Ivy admissions policies.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
10-14-19 01:16 PM - Post#288549    
    In response to H78

I read parts of the decision and was amazed at the judge’s approach, which started from her favorable impression of the admissions staff and used that to interpret the data rather than the other way around. Also at her astonishing (though mealy-mouthed) displacement of responsibility for the low “personality” scores the staff meted out to Asian-American applicants onto high-school teachers and guidance counselors, with a hint that perhaps these subjective score disparities were accurate.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
10-14-19 01:40 PM - Post#288550    
    In response to SRP

Yes, I tend to agree that the rationale gets mushy but the real thing it pointed out is that the student with good grades and scores is a dime a dozen to Harvard (and probably every Ivy). Since 30% of the class is ALDCs (athletes, legacies, faculty children and students on the dean’s list (not an academic honor, but rather tied to donors and other families of interest)), the competition for the non-specialized slots where 5% or less get in is intense and it would not surprise me (nor did it surprise the Judge) that Asian kids who are 1st generation would be likely to lose out in the "what special characteristic are you bringing to Harvard"---which is the real meaning of the "personality" score. And that would be true of almost any 1st generation immigrant from a different cultural and language background.

In my view, this is the right "result"--it would be very dangerous to say that a private university cannot choose its own class where the distinctions made are between applicants who really all are admittable. Does distinguishing between .3 on a GPA of different schools or a 40 point SAT difference really make someone more qualified than another? But the logic in the opinion is questionable given the Judge's almost desperate attempt to fit this case within O'Connor's view that the need for Affirmative Action should be gone within 25 years.


Given who was funding this lawsuit, it's pretty clear that it isn't any real concern for Asian students that drives it. But it will be interesting to see how it plays on appeal.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
10-25-19 12:17 PM - Post#289084    
    In response to palestra38

Well sure, if you want to go the Richard Epstein route that private entities ought to be able to discriminate even if they receive federal funding, then the decision is a plus. But under the rules we actually live by, the judge seemed to be quite biased and indifferent to the evidence presented.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
10-25-19 02:36 PM - Post#289088    
    In response to SRP

I look at it in the real world. This case was not about Asians at all---it was funded by a reactionary conservative group whose motivation is to weaken diversity in society. It was Bakke II. And frankly, while I agree that the "personality" score issue was less than objective, so is taking someone simply because his or her scores are a few points higher on a standardized test. To win this case, I think it's necessary to show that Harvard is admitting kids who cannot do the work and helping them through. And if that applies to any group, it's a certain segment of legacies. The question is how do you define discrimination in admissions decisions? There is no strictly objective basis for them, nor should there be. I have no problem with a preference given to a group historically the subject of discrimination and which still is underrepresented in upper level colleges and universities. The rest of us will get in somewhere good. The guy who didn't get into Harvard by the skin of his teeth will get in somewhere.

 
Stuart Suss 
PhD Student
Posts: 1439

Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
10-25-19 03:31 PM - Post#289097    
    In response to palestra38

It is now clear that this type of discussion belongs on the off-topic board. This board should be a sanctuary from political commentary.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
11-12-20 01:31 PM - Post#316579    
    In response to Stuart Suss

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/11/1...

Trial Court decision on Harvard admissions affirmed

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
11-23-20 05:08 PM - Post#317238    
    In response to palestra38

The resounding defeat of Prop 16 in California, despite overwhelming support from every establishment institution and a 900% spending advantage, is a bellwether. Public acceptance of this policy is set to decline sharply.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
11-23-20 08:44 PM - Post#317245    
    In response to SRP

Not the same issue. As we know, Harvard does not answer to public opinion. And despite the fact that it accepts federal funds, it really is a different issue from public employment and public universities---frankly, I think there would have been a different result had public employment been split off from affirmative action in colleges. The purpose of affirmative action in colleges is to create a more level playing field for jobs. I think people look at jobs differently.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
Harvard wins Affirmative Action Suit
11-24-20 02:19 PM - Post#317250    
    In response to palestra38

I wonder what public perception would be if it was understood how much of a leg up that the entrenched - alumni offspring, the rich, those who go to the right finishing schools, athletes of elitist sports - have on the general population.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Harvard wins Affirmative Action Suit
11-24-20 02:51 PM - Post#317251    
    In response to TheLine

I think most of those who would think of applying to Harvard know that. But again, trying to compare public employment and public universities to Harvard is just not an apt comparison. But I might lean the other way in this lawsuit were it not for just what you mention--that the privileged have such an advantage that they almost have to go to special means to ensure a more diverse class.

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
12-11-20 04:43 AM - Post#317922    
    In response to palestra38

Seriously, this is denial given the substantial federal funds that make Harvard subject to Title IX. It is not clearly distinguishable from the “public Ivies” in the UC system. The dishonesty and hypocrisy of the policy and its defenders will continue to erode legitimacy. Everything will look fine to the reactionary defenders until just before the bottom drops out.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
12-11-20 06:33 AM - Post#317924    
    In response to SRP

Criticize me when they eliminate legacy admissions. Reactionary? LOL

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
12-11-20 09:41 PM - Post#317958    
    In response to palestra38

Early Action selections due next week!

 
SRP 
Postdoc
Posts: 4894

Reg: 02-04-06
12-15-20 07:29 AM - Post#318040    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Legacy black students are now in the pipeline, so even that irrelevant whataboutism is obsolescent. And if people start flyspeckiing whether affluent applicants of Caribbean ancestry are getting boosted above working-class applicants of East Asian ancestry, all bets will definitely be off.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
12-15-20 08:37 AM - Post#318041    
    In response to SRP

Nonsense. This case was funded by white conservatives to protect their privileges while attacking others. You cannot divorce legacy admissions from affirmative action admissions on any kind of consistent analysis. If you are going to maintain that federal law requires that admissions to a private university be on merit only (however you can make that an even playing field--which is another reason to affirm here), you cannot allow M. Garrett Mergafoil III to be admitted with lower grades either. And Mergafoil is funding this lawsuit.

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
12-20-20 10:38 PM - Post#318141    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

FYI -

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ivy-league-c olleges-r...

https://www.browndailyherald.com/2020/12/17/brown-...

https://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2020/12/dartm ...

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/12/18/ha rv...

https://www.thedp.com/article/2020/12/penn- admissi...

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2020/12/16/yale- adm...

Early Decision/Early Action Application Increases:
Brown (ED): 22% (Record high applicants)
Columbia (ED): 49% (Record high applicants)
Dartmouth (ED): 29% (Record high applicants)
Harvard (EA): 57% (Record high applicants)
Penn (ED): 23% (Record high applicants)
Yale (EA): 38% (Record high applicants)

ED/EA Acceptance Rate
Brown: 15.9% (Record Low)
Columbia: ?
Dartmouth: 21% (Record low)
Harvard: 7.4% (Record Low)
Penn: 15% (Record low)
Yale: 10.5% (Lowest, since at least 2008)

Cornell (ED): No longer releases numbers to the public
Princeton; suspended EA for 2021-2022 academic year

The test optional policy certainly was a major factor in the big increases.

Nationally, applications across the nation were down 6% and FAFSA applications also had a big decline. However, elite private and flagship public universities seem to be having record numbers.

It seems like the pandemic is going to increase the already wide gap between the haves and have not schools.


 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21085

Reg: 12-02-04
12-20-20 10:45 PM - Post#318143    
    In response to rbg

The Nation boychicks, thankfully, were not part of those statistics.

Only one of my boychicks applied Early Action, and that was to one place -- a state school at that.

Yes, it seemed like there was a real frenzy at their school to apply early decision. We were not part of that crowd. I just don't get it.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
12-21-20 07:06 AM - Post#318144    
    In response to penn nation

It's because of lack of other options, such as a gap year and travel. My younger daughter is applying to grad school (MBA) and the competition at the top schools is by far the most intense in history. For grad students, of course, unemployment is another driver. Having an Ivy degree is seen as protection from long term unemployment and a worthy investment. And it is.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21085

Reg: 12-02-04
12-21-20 02:13 PM - Post#318155    
    In response to palestra38

I hear you, but my sons were both firm on wanting small places that were not pressure cookers where most of the student body is consumed with getting a 4.0 so that they can get ahead in the world. They are also somewhat introverted.

In addition, one of my sons has executive functioning issues. Not that this stopped him from getting mail from every Ivy school to apply to it. But he was not interested. More important to both that they applied to some other places which are known for really taking care of their students and making sure they will not get lost in the shuffle.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
12-21-20 02:25 PM - Post#318157    
    In response to penn nation

I hope you don't take what I said to mean that someone cannot get a great education at non-Ivy schools? But the demand to get in at a time of economic upheaval speaks for itself. And of course, the Ivies are not for everyone---and they have changed dramatically since my time (which I saw when my daughter went to Penn--she loved it though).

Of course, applying to MBA programs also is very different from applying undergraduate---the investment/return is much more directly relevant.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
02-03-21 02:32 PM - Post#320156    
    In response to palestra38

News Just In---Biden administration drops similar suit against Yale.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/yal...

 
Go Green 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
Harvard wins Affirmative Action Suit
02-03-21 04:52 PM - Post#320168    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
News Just In---Biden administration drops similar suit against Yale.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/yal...



"Upon further election... er... reflection, the government respectfully requests dismissal in the underlying matter."




Edited by Go Green on 02-03-21 04:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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