Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-18-19 08:35 AM - Post#288714
Betley is going to have a great year. The kid can shoot and tearing a patella tendon didn’t change that. He can move without the ball and this offense is awesome for a kid with his ability. Offensively I would expect to see him at or better than his level 2 years ago. The issue is on the defensive end. Can he move laterally enough to stay in front of the guys he will have to cover? Penn has been top 100 on defense mainly because they had 5 guys on the court who could guard without help. That allowed them to stay on the kick outs and make the guy with the ball work to get a shot off over their defender. If one guy can’t consistently stay in front of their assignment it requires help and then the defense begins to break down philosophically
I decided to move this to the Penn board as my question is Penncentric. Basically, Penn is trading defense for offense with the loss of Woods and the addition of Betley. That is not necessarily bad. Even if Betley were 100%, he was not at the level of Woods defensively. While Woods was average offensively last year, he was still a decent 3-point shooter at .348. However, Betley is clearly a better shooter and will help a great deal at the FT line where the team desperately needs to improve. Beyond that, I am not certain what to make of PF10’s comments on defense. My question is whether you and/or P38 see a net improvement here regardless of the impact on defense?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Projections
10-18-19 09:04 AM - Post#288722
In response to Condor
I just answered that on the other board. We cannot afford for him to be a defensive liability. And until we see him play, we just do not know. But if he is merely adequate, we will be a better team than last year.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21276
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Projections
10-18-19 10:17 AM - Post#288735
In response to palestra38
We also don't know what his mobility will be like on offense. Betley is a very good outside shooter, but he is very versatile and can beat you off the dribble if you overplay him out there.
If he is restricted to being mainly a spot up shooter, that is a loss.
I just answered that on the other board. We cannot afford for him to be a defensive liability. And until we see him play, we just do not know. But if he is merely adequate, we will be a better team than last year.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Projections
10-18-19 10:24 AM - Post#288738
In response to penn nation
If Betley is healthy and hasn't lost his quickness then he'll be fine. Silpe played major minutes last year and as much as I loved his contribution, staying in front of his man wasn't one of his strengths.
I'm more concerned about Wang TBH.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-18-19 01:27 PM - Post#288745
In response to TheLine
wang makes the whole thing work. I feel like I overemphasize "you can't overemphasize how helpful it is to have a 6'10 bomber who pulls the defense out and provides acres of space for the other 4 teammates" too often but therein lies the conflict.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23496
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-18-19 01:40 PM - Post#288746
In response to Jeff2sf
Yep. We have huge upside this year. Now get er done.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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10-18-19 03:54 PM - Post#288756
In response to 10Q
My biggest hope is that the entire team stays healthy for the whole season.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-18-19 05:05 PM - Post#288763
In response to weinhauers_ghost
We were top 100 on defense 2 years ago w Betley. This is not a trade of Woods for Betley in my opinion. Woods was an elite and versatile defender and Devin had the ability to stay in front of Aiken (and now Smith) like no other guard in the conference. Washington has defensive chops similar to Woods and needs to take that step. MLL and Jarrod need to be able to replace the intelligence and grit on defense that Max brought because the staple of our defense was two bigs that could guard and rebound. I think this team has the ability to be good on defense. As P38 says, if Betley can be back to what he was 2 years ago then we will have 2.75 two way players and that’s more than every team but Harvard.
The best teams have multiple two way players, guys who can score and guard at all conference levels (Myles Stephens, Oni, Brodeur, Seth Towns, Goodman, Bassey, etc).
Mike Wang is a huge liability on defense and that alone will keep him from being on the floor as much as he should. We don’t know about the young guys. 2.75 is enough. We can mix and match the others to compete at a high level IMO.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-18-19 05:08 PM - Post#288764
In response to PennFan10
Our offense and Betley’s range makes his offensive mobility less important, though he still needs to move off the ball, which he was very good at two years ago.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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10-18-19 05:40 PM - Post#288765
In response to PennFan10
If Wang can get back to his pre-injury form then I find it had to believe he's not getting minutes.
Dude played 34 minutes in the Nova win.
Granted advanced defensive metrics aren't the end-all but Wang's numbers didn't suck during his hot stretch.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-19-19 04:52 AM - Post#288776
In response to TheLine
His hot stretch was early in the season when scouting hadn’t identified him as an easy target for opposing teams. As soon as our conference slate started every team went after him on almost every possession. He needed this offseason to work hard on his lateral quickness so he could move his feet on defense. With his knee issues all summer, it doesn’t appear he will have made any improvements, in fact he likely regressed if he isn’t 100%. Wang also doesn’t look like he cares much about defense, which is about 80% of a good defensive players makeup.
I just don’t see how Donahue is going to be able to play him 30 minutes a game if he can’t guard anyone. More likely he plays 20-24m and is an offense/defense sub for the last 10 minutes of each half, which Donahue is prone to do. Now if we are outscoring people and Donahue throws defense out the window, he would play 30+, but that hasn’t been our identity the last 3 years and that doesn’t work at the end of the season in the ILT. You have to be able to get stops to win big games.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4366
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-19 06:36 AM - Post#288778
In response to PennFan10
No doubt that Antonio Woods was a plus defender, but defense is really a team thing. Almost any defender can be beaten off the dribble. The question is what happens afterward.
I think Ryan Betley plays very good team defense. I'm not sure about Michael Wang but Michael was a freshman last year and his year was impacted by injury. Can he play good help defense, block out, rebound the ball etc. ? I hope his knee is sound enough to allow us to find out.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8316
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-19 09:30 AM - Post#288783
In response to AsiaSunset
Almost any defender can be beaten off the dribble. The question is what happens afterward.
Every basketball coach on Earth could use that line.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-21-19 11:02 AM - Post#288839
In response to Streamers
Some telling quotes from SD after the RB scrimmage:
“We go through AJ so much, and now we have some really good perimeter players,†coach Steve Donahue said. “I think we [have] a lot of players that can help us. I think we’re deeper than we’ve been the last couple of years.â€
Helping to take the load off Brodeur are sophomores Michael Wang and Bryce Washington, both of who were double-digit scorers on Saturday.
“When we played well last year is when Michael [Wang] and Bryce [Washington] were shooting the ball and were scoring the ball,†Donahue said. “Bryce Washington has taken a huge step in terms of where he was last year.â€
So Steve believes depth is a strength, not an issue that has been presented here. And Bryce Washington is set to make a huge step, which is likely in the Antonio Woods role with better offense.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-21-19 11:46 AM - Post#288841
In response to PennFan10
SD's comments are very encouraging. There are only two weeks before Alabama.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-21-19 02:12 PM - Post#288845
In response to Condor
PF10, Of course you know my take, when you're as amazing as Wang was last year, you can decide to hang out at half court line and you'll contribute to winning and, of course, he deserved all of Max's minutes.
But even if you don't take that POV, did the Ivies attack (and succeed in attacking) Wang because stuff showed up on film, or did that occur because he was hobbled and wasn't as effective on either end.
Wang doing what he did against Nova is essentially all the evidence I need that he can be a successful 30+ minute per game player with no further improvements on D. It should suffice for Steve.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-21-19 02:30 PM - Post#288848
In response to Jeff2sf
Would you say the same thing about Jakub Mijakowski after he dropped 4 threes on Temple and was largely responsible for that tough road victory?
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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10-21-19 02:45 PM - Post#288850
In response to Jeff2sf
I would expect a healthy Wang to improve defensively as a sophomore simply due to acclimation to the college game and having had more time in Donohue's system.
In looking at some of the video from his high school days, it did look to me as if he was a decent help defender and shot blocker. Even if he never becomes an outstanding post defender at the college level, the ability to act as a good help defender and disruptor in the paint has value.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-21-19 03:30 PM - Post#288857
In response to weinhauers_ghost
The kid is stinking 6-10, he should be able to guard bigs but he got backed down and viciously dunked on against Yale when they tried that. If we are scoring 80 (Wang 25) and the opponent is scoring 70 Wang can play all he wants. If we are scoring 70 (Wang 6) and the opponent is scoring 80 then it's likely because every team isolates him and scores at will, he should ride the pine. Villanova didn't challenge Wang, that was a bad move.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-21-19 04:15 PM - Post#288862
In response to PennFan10
Wasn't that the game where Woods was matched up on Paschall for a bunch of possessions, and Villanova kept feeding the ball into him thinking that was a mismatch? And even the announcers kept calling it a mismatch, but it never seemed to work because, ya know, Woods is used to guarding much bigger players.
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