TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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10-21-19 04:36 PM - Post#288864
In response to mrjames
Yes, that game.
Jeff's point, which I think is valid, is that Wang was a difference maker before he went down with an injury and he came back less mobile and more tentative after that.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2144
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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10-21-19 04:44 PM - Post#288866
In response to TheLine
Yes, that game.
Jeff's point, which I think is valid, is that Wang was a difference maker before he went down with an injury and he came back less mobile and more tentative after that.
Jeff does make a valid point, and I also think it's valid to expect a second year player to have adjusted and improved over what he was able to do defensively as a freshman.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-21-19 05:07 PM - Post#288867
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Wang went down with an injury when he opted out of the last regular season game against Brown, subsequently got shut down and had a minor offseason surgery. His offensive and defensive woes began long before that.
I think the common belief among insiders, of which I am not, is that a majority of Wang's issues last year were mental, not physical.
Hopefully he has a better disposition this year and can play freely on both ends.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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Projections
10-21-19 05:08 PM - Post#288868
In response to weinhauers_ghost
For sure. I fully acknowledge there were a number of times he made boneheaded Freshman plays and got caught well out of position.
First it would be good to know whether Wang is back to a pre-injury level. If he isn't then he's a 6'-10" jump shooter who is useful to have on the roster but unlikely to be more than a role player. The pre-injury Wang could be more than that.
I thought the pre-injury Wang was giving effort on defense and had a knack for playing the passing lanes well and going after rebounds.
If Simmons or someone else earns the minutes then so be it.
I'm bad at psycho-analysis so don't want to get into a mental vs. physical discussion. All I know is that some players can suffer a serious injury and come back at a high level - Aiken, Bruner, Rosenberg. Others are too injured to ever be the same but make up for it in other ways, like Tyler Bernardini. And others don't make it back at all.
Edited by TheLine on 10-21-19 05:16 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Projections
10-21-19 05:38 PM - Post#288869
In response to TheLine
He was injured in the Toledo game. That wasn't mental, although his confidence in the injured knee might be. That was long before the Brown game.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4370
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Projections
10-21-19 05:46 PM - Post#288870
In response to TheLine
We’ll see this year. It’s not unusual for freshman to look uncomfortable playing defense. Even Bryce had trouble and he’s very quick and is extremely athletic.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: Projections
10-21-19 06:34 PM - Post#288871
In response to palestra38
He was injured in the Toledo game. That wasn't mental, although his confidence in the injured knee might be. That was long before the Brown game.
Nope. Toledo was a mild ankle sprain that kept him out of practice for a week. The knee was a mysterious development. Trust me, the coaches thought he was gonna play vs Brown...he participated in warmups vs Yale on that Friday and was dunking and making 3's. He didn't play in that game (coaches decision) and then opted out at the shoot around before Brown saying his knee was hurt. I stand by my comments.
Edited by PennFan10 on 10-21-19 06:37 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-21-19 07:52 PM - Post#288875
In response to PennFan10
I admit I’m bitter because a mentally healthy Wang gives is a shot at the NCAAs last year for a second year in a row. I liked how he looked Saturday. He has that swagger back. Let’s hope he keeps it when Jarrod and MLL start fogging his minutes cuz he is a turnstile on D.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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10-21-19 09:13 PM - Post#288879
In response to PennFan10
That ankle sprain sure didn't look mild. He looked like he was gutting it out on one leg for several games after that.
Can't wait for the season to start because these type of discussions are pointless. We won't know what's up until the real games begin.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-21-19 10:06 PM - Post#288881
In response to TheLine
Here is a video clip from the RB scrimmage as evidence #1 of what we can expect from Wang on defense
https://twitter.com/pennbasketball/status /11856388...
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-21-19 10:49 PM - Post#288883
In response to PennFan10
It happens? Get over it?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-21-19 11:13 PM - Post#288884
In response to Jeff2sf
Nice. I like it. We should switch from Whanau to that!
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-22-19 12:05 AM - Post#288886
In response to PennFan10
Your love of defense is aggressively weird man. What about alll the possessions where max meandered around the paint getting in the way of the other players while llookimg nominally busy. And I don’t like to bag on max but when you do it with mike calling him a malingering lazy person and questioning his integrity, idk man.
Whanau is dumb and it’ reeks of that unfortunate phase where people got arm tats with Polynesian and Asian lettering without appreciating the real context and subtext.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-22-19 12:46 AM - Post#288887
In response to Jeff2sf
Yeah I don’t think Mike Wang is ever going to be a great defender and unfortunately his time missed this summer probably means he didn’t progress much in that department, but hopefully back again fully practicing with the team he can work towards being an adequate defender this year. I think if he can get to that, his plus skills on offense are going to earn him a lot of minutes.
Re: Video yeah that’s not a great look for his D, but tough match up to have Eddie and hopefully it will get better since he is just back to full practices right?
That said, can we talk about a few other things on the clip? One I thought Eddie Scott did a lot of good things from moving off the ball and passing in a way that I haven’t really seen him do before within the offense. Could this be the year he cashes in on some of that potential? Surprised not many folks have been mentioning him from the scrimmage if he also was nailing 3’s...
Also thought Mark Jackson made a real nice cut to the basket and looked much more fluid than last year. Not sure if he’ll get minutes but can see improvement for sure.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-22-19 08:18 AM - Post#288890
In response to Mike Porter
I would be shocked if Mark Jackson gets any non-Garbage Time minutes unless there is a massive foul out.
Whatever Wang's defensive deficiencies may be, Donahue will account for them in his game plan. If he can give us what he gave us until his Toledo injury last year (call it mild if you want, but his play was severely affected), it is crucial that he gets at least 20 minutes
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-22-19 09:30 AM - Post#288893
In response to palestra38
Just to be clear, you pointed out Toledo when the discussion was around Mike's knee inury and I merely said that was an ankle and the knee was later.
I agree with your end point and would be shocked if he didn't start and play 22+ minutes a game. Whether he can be on the floor for 30+ min a game every night like AJ, Dev and Ryan will depends on his development as a two way player in my estimation.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-22-19 09:38 AM - Post#288894
In response to PennFan10
Yes, it appears that the knee injury was a result of trying to play on the bad ankle---but my initial description was inaccurate. But that's when he originally was injured and he never had the explosiveness he had up to that time for the rest of the year.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-22-19 10:13 AM - Post#288897
In response to palestra38
Ok, that's one narrative and I'm happy to go with it so we can move on.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-22-19 10:43 AM - Post#288898
In response to PennFan10
Over the last 10 years the Ivy League's NCAA representative in the Dance has had either a top 75 offense or defense. Twice Harvard had a top 75 Offense and defense (2012 and 2014).
The ideal is to be top 75 in both (Harvard has a good chance at that this year) but it's also clear the IL rep has had one or the other. Penn hasn't sniffed a top 100 offense since 2007 and SD's calling card the last 3 years has been defense. In 2018 we won the ILT with the 208th offense and 72nd defense.
At Cornell, SD was a top 75 offense each of his NCAA years and his best D was 2010 (149 and 9th in Off). I think you can win with a top 75 offense or defense. My focus on defense recently comes from the notion that this team has been a defensive minded team. Steve may be changing that with the pieces he has this year and if their offense can go from 181 last year to 75 this year I'll lead the charge in celebrating that. Their D was 94th last year which was why they sniffed the ILT.
It's hard to have both. In Penn's NCAA runs from 2002-2007 here are their O/D rankings
Year O/D rank
2007 85/125 NCAA
2006 188/34 NCAA
2005 181/17 NCAA
2004 75/88 --
2003 41/68 NCAA
2002 60/68 NCAA
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-22-19 11:30 AM - Post#288902
In response to PennFan10
I mean you kinda came in, played Woj to Steve Donahue's NBA executive, and firebombed the guy's integrity but now we just move on?
that's not cool.
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