dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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01-03-20 12:32 AM - Post#295832
Since there is the possibility that the league schedule may become very different next year now that Princeton is changing their academic calendar, I suppose it's now or never to ask this question. I'm trying to calculate the total number of possible arrangements of the "paired" portion of the schedule (i.e., not including the games against your travel partner.) Observation shows that at least in recent years, the following rules apply:
1.) If the three other pairs are denoted by A, B, and C, the order in which your pair will play them is always in the format A, B, C, A, C, B.
2. The order in which the games against each pair are played is always reversed the second time you play them, e.g., if Penn plays Columbia on Friday and Cornell on Saturday when they go to New York, the return trip to Philly will have Penn playing Cornell on Friday and Columbia on Saturday. Of course, Princeton will play Cornell on Friday and Columbia on Saturday the first time, and reverse the second time.
3. No pair can be either at home or on the road more than two weekends in a row.
4. In the last two weekends of the season, each pair must play at home once and away once.
Given the combined effect of 1 and 4, I realized that it's easier to begin the calculation with the final weekend of the season and work backward. The number of possibilities for the final weekend is calculated as follows:
a.) Let's denote the four pairs by A, B, C, & D, and imagine we are putting them in a hat. The 1st and 2nd pairs drawn will play each other, as will the 3rd and 4th pairs; the 2nd and 4th pairs will host. The total number of possibilities is therefore 4 x 3 x 2 = 24; however, each possibility is functionally equivalent to one of the other choices (e.g., A @ B & C @ D is the same thing as C @ D & A @ B for our purposes), so the real number of choices, combining the matchups and the locations, is 4 x 3 = 12.
b.) Within each matchup of pairs, there are two orders in which the games can be played. Again, using the example above, either Penn can start with Columbia and Princeton with Cornell, or else vice versa. Since there are two matchups, that means there are four possible arrangements for which games are played on which days.
Therefore, the total number of possibilities for the final weekend are 12 x 4 = 48.
Given rule #4 above, once the final weekend is determined, there is only one combination of opponents and locations for the next-to-last weekend that will satisfy the rule. For example, if the last weekend is A @ B and C @ D, the only legal combination for the next-to-last weekend is D @ A and B @ C. The only remaining degree of freedom (sorry if I'm using this phrase imprecisely) is what order the games will be played; again, there are four possibilities.
Now that the last two weekends are laid out, only one option remains for the matchups for the fourth weekend; however, at this point we again have the freedom to pick either pair within each matchup to host, so we have four possible sets of hosts, which when multiplied again by the four possible orders in which the games can be played, gives us a total of 16 choices.
When the final three weekends are set, that in turn will determine exactly which way that the first three weekends are arranged. Therefore, my calculation for the total number of ways the "paired" portion of the schedule can be laid out, given the four rules above, is 48 x 4 x 16 = 3,072. Is there anything I'm wrong about or missing here?
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Check My Reasoning re: League Schedule
01-03-20 12:21 PM - Post#295862
In response to dperry
Fun thought experiment, but I don't think that we're going to be limited by travel partners when the schedule changes next season.
I don't recall the exact details, but IIRC, the season will be lengthened and Fri/Sat back-to-backs are donezo.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-03-20 01:44 PM - Post#295871
In response to mrjames
My information is that the committee proposal called for 3 or 4 weekends of Friday/Sunday games, one on the road and one at home. The remaining schedule would be 6 or 8 weekends of single games.
My information is that the committee proposal was voted down, with the opposition led by Coach Amaker. I do not know the position of the women's coaches.
The athletes were polled, asking the question: Do you want to play games on Sundays? Without being given the full context behind the question, the athletes voted against Sunday games.
Bottom line, I am not sure the back to backs are done, perhaps merely reduced from 6 to 3 or 4.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-03-20 02:06 PM - Post#295872
In response to Stuart Suss
Stu's had a lot better info on this than I all the way along, so I'd go with his read. My understanding, though, is that Friday/Sunday is happening and it'll be a 10 week league season, so 4 Friday/Sundays and 6 singles.
Should make scheduling tougher and weird, as teams will have to debate whether to jam all 13 (or 15-16 with MTE) games into Nov/Dec or whether to continue to schedule some non-conf games while league play is happening. To me, the one upshot is that it makes playing MTEs and counting all of the games more attractive as a solve for getting all the games in prior to league play.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12530
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-03-20 02:25 PM - Post#295876
In response to mrjames
I love the secrecy with which everything is handled. Why not have a real debate with all sides getting their points across? How can the players be asked that question without context? Do they ever make good decisions in that office...sigh.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-03-20 02:51 PM - Post#295878
In response to Quakers03
Sometimes we assume something is a bug when it might, in fact, be seen by those in charge as a feature...
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12530
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-03-20 05:29 PM - Post#295898
In response to mrjames
Oh I have no doubt. It's what makes the situation so much worse.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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01-03-20 09:38 PM - Post#295912
In response to Quakers03
I love the hypocrisy of saying we had to have a tournament because the players wanted it, but we have to play on Sundays even though the players don't want it.
More misguided anti-differentiation for the IL. Back-to-backs with travel partners are a useful thing for academics, for creating natural rivalries, and for tournament preparation. A decompressed league schedule with single-game weekends makes non-conference scheduling harder.
The bizarre thing about this change is that it isn't easy to understand what the real or espoused motivation is. I can understand why Adam Silver wants to have a mid-season tournament for the NBA--it addresses a real problem with their overlong regular season. What problem does the IL's "reform" solve?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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01-03-20 10:45 PM - Post#295916
In response to SRP
I love the hypocrisy of saying we had to have a tournament because the players wanted it, but we have to play on Sundays even though the players don't want it.
Who ever said this? I think it was said the players like it, but I don’t remember anyone saying the tournament exists because the players wanted it.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-04-20 03:49 AM - Post#295920
In response to PennFan10
Sign me up for Fri/Sun kind of schedule. I like the spread of games as a fan and much better let these kids get a day or rest in between games. I think back to backs take a toll and I often wonder if that plays a roll in all the Ivy injuries which sure seem to happen at a higher rate in our league and often be to top players (guys who already play a lot of mins).
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whitakk
Masters Student
Posts: 523
Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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01-04-20 02:54 PM - Post#295938
In response to Mike Porter
How many serious injuries have occurred during the back-to-backs? Everything that comes to mind was offseason, non-conference, or in Towns' case postseason.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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01-05-20 05:28 AM - Post#296061
In response to PennFan10
Come on. Whenever the folly was discussed, the first line of defense was how much the players and coaches wanted it. Every time.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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01-05-20 04:22 PM - Post#296094
In response to SRP
Come on. Whenever the folly was discussed, the first line of defense was how much the players and coaches wanted it. Every time.
The players definitely want it. That is completely different than why it was voted in. Don't confuse the two.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-06-20 10:16 AM - Post#296136
In response to PennFan10
The Tournament and Fri-Sat games are completely separate issues. But I think injuries are not a factor---these are 18-22 year olds. They can play back to backs once a week with no problem. It may affect teams differently, but I agree with SRP that it's best for academics. It's also best for the fans. Who wants to be inside on a Sunday afternoon when you work all week and have 2 days with daylight to enjoy? I would seriously think of giving up my season tickets (and just getting tickets for the Friday games) if they did this. One other thing--with Princeton finally joining the modern world and being available for Ivy games in mid-January starting next year, there is no need for this at all. Play it the way the League always has, but just start when the student return after break. That way there is time to fit in the pairs games on 2 Saturday nights during the League season.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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01-06-20 11:06 AM - Post#296137
In response to palestra38
Some alums/fans do travel for the Fri/Sat weekends. It's a burden to come from, say, NYC to Cambridge, but for the 3 home weekends of Ivy Fri/Sat night play it is possible. Personally, when pressed to fit the weekend in, I've driven back 3.5 hours after Saturday night's game. Less able to do so for single game or, as I believe I've read, one of the Fri/Sun games possibly being on the road.
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84grad
Junior
Posts: 277
Age: 64
Reg: 11-09-17
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01-06-20 01:51 PM - Post#296153
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I did Orlando tournament and DC back-to-back so far this year. I will be doing 4 more weekend road trips this year - all 3 back-to-backs in Cambridge and the Penn/Princeton away games. If they shift to Fri/Sun, I may do 1 trip for the hell of it to Cambridge (long trip) and will probably do the Columbia/Penn/Princeton road games since they are fairly easy to do from New York (train to Philly and reasonable drive to Princeton). Will pass on my season tickets for the 1st time in awhile. Fri-Sun kills the whole weekend.
Fri/Sat and no tournament were my favorite parts of Ivy play. Oh well, you can't always get what you want.
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Bryan
Junior
Posts: 231
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-06-20 02:37 PM - Post#296159
In response to 84grad
The main reason for setting games on Friday and Saturday when the Ivy league started was to minimize the time the players were away from school and the number of classes they would miss. There is nothing different I can see that makes a Friday/Sunday weekend more (or less) appealing next season than it is this year- and that approach is not being used this year.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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01-06-20 04:08 PM - Post#296166
In response to Bryan
Not in the best interest of studies or fans. Starting to sound like Ivy Madness - literally and figuratively.
Hey 84, we both made the mistake of going to Charlottesville (uh, for the basketball game a few years back). Glad I made it to Jacksonville. Should have attended Paradise Island, Maui and (maybe) Anchorage.
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84grad
Junior
Posts: 277
Age: 64
Reg: 11-09-17
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01-06-20 05:08 PM - Post#296167
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
HDG,
Even with California (2017) and Orlando (2019), I say more MTEs please!
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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01-08-20 10:07 AM - Post#296234
In response to 84grad
Some of us have questioned the scheduling D-3 and Canadian squads in January. Apparently, it is very difficult to find quality opponents as league schedules have already started. I'm assuming that Princeton's academic calendar change will allow a more robust Ivy schedule in January.
In the meantime, I'd like to share a concern I've had with regard to scheduling down. My personal experience is that bad habits form when you are playing a lesser opponent. Sloppiness and lack of precision is often not exploited by a weaker opponent. I've wondered whether this phenomenon has impacted Harvard's play in early season losses vs. Dartmouth after playing teams like McGill, Ryerson, etc.
On the other hand, playing up causes teams to refine their games and up their effort. For example, Brown just defeated URI after playing Duke. Coincidence?
I'm pleased that Harvard has two weeks off before playing Dartmouth. At least as opposed to scheduling a D3 or Canadian patsy.
Wonder if anyone with access and skills has access to any statistics on my theory?
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HGA
Sophomore
Posts: 106
Loc: New York
Reg: 10-16-18
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01-08-20 10:53 AM - Post#296237
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I’ve not gathered statistics but I see no way around this due to other conferences having already started. For every team playing down, the other team is playing up. We need the Duke’s of the world to want to play “lesser†teams and we should do the same for our D-3 partners. If we’re all doing it, there should be no excuses. It also allows those deep on the bench to get some burn and make teams a little deeper in conference play.
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welcometothejungle
Masters Student
Posts: 788
Age: 27
Reg: 07-31-19
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Check My Reasoning re: League Schedule
01-08-20 08:23 PM - Post#296268
In response to HGA
On this week's episode of the Mitch Henderson Radio Show (available here: https://princetontigers.podbean.com/e/the-mitch-he... - around the 22:00 mark), Coach Henderson discussed some details on next year's scheduling with Princeton moving its fall semester exams to before the holidays.
From what Henderson said, the schedule changes will look like this:
-"Travel partners" are gone
-First league games will be right after New Years on January 2nd
-10 week Ivy League schedule with limited # of back to backs
-Sundays will still be free, and no classes will be missed still
-He mentions possibility of playing games in the afternoon on Saturdays on single game weekends
He also mentions that Princeton will be starting off with a road game at Harvard next year, which suggests that there won't be a conference opener with travel partners either (ie no Princeton/Penn matchup to start IL play, etc)
Edited by welcometothejungle on 01-08-20 08:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-08-20 08:48 PM - Post#296270
In response to welcometothejungle
If Coach Henderson is correct and there is to be:
1. a 10 week schedule, and
2. Sundays will still be free.
Then, the league will have 4 weeks of back to backs and 6 weeks of single games.
A "limited" number of back to backs only means 4 instead of the current 6.
Even if travel partners are "gone," there is still a practical, geographic limitation on back to backs. Cornell and Brown or Harvard will not be back to back. Dartmouth and Penn or Princeton will not be back to back. There will have to be travel partners even if it is not the current set of partners.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Check My Reasoning re: League Schedule
01-08-20 10:49 PM - Post#296289
In response to Stuart Suss
1. I understood that if the schedule changed, it would likely be radically different, which is precisely why I asked the question now, while the traditional schedule is still in effect. At any rate, I would still be grateful if someone could check my math and tell me if I'm right or not. 
2. I think the main reason the players like having Sunday off is this; with Friday/Saturday games, you get home late Saturday night/early Sunday morning (with the possible exception of the longest trips), and if it's a short trip, you might even manage to go out late with your friends. Then you've got all Sunday to catch up on your sleep and your schoolwork on campus. Realistically, if you play Fridays and Sundays, the schedule is going to end up like this:
a. You'll play Friday night, then stay at a hotel in the same area.
b. You'll get up early Saturday, drive to the second school, and then have an actual practice on Saturday afternoon (and probably a longer and more detailed one than now, because you would actually have some time to prepare for the second team.)
c. You'll have a shootaround Sunday morning, play the game Sunday afternoon, and then spend the rest of Sunday getting home; if it's one of the longer trips, you'll get back late Sunday night, have to crash immediately, and then get right back up again for class on Monday morning. The only realistic times to do schoolwork would be on the bus and Saturday night, and it wouldn't be on campus; you also have no time to decompress with non-basketball friends. If I'm a player, I totally want to keep my Sundays free, and this is even before you get into the fact that athletes are more likely to be churchgoers than the campus at large. It is also ironic that the players, at least in this instance, seem to be more concerned about academics than the league is.
3. I am assuming that Henderson is not counting the abomination as one of the ten weekends. Next year, Selection Sunday is March 14, and there are 11 weekends between there and January 2, so we are still going up against the big guys on the final weekend and on most schools' spring breaks. Fail. 
4. Maybe they want to rotate the back-to-back games each year in some idea of "fairness", but I agree with Stu that it would be silly to abandon the travel partners all together. It also seems to me that you want the longer schleps to be the back-to-backs, so you can avoid two round trips to the same far-away area. If there are four back-to-back weekends, I would do it this way (home-and-away for each combination, of course):
--D & H vs. the P's
--D & H vs. the C's
--B & Y vs. the P's
--B & Y vs. the C's
This would cover all of the ten longest trips in the league and 14 of the 17 longest (out of 28 total), and at least three of each team's four longest trips.
Personally, I'd pick two Tuesdays in the middle of the season, and have each team play one of their closer opponents on those days, which would in turn allow you to both move the abomination up one week and push the start of the season back one week, so that the students are back for all the games.
5. Any word yet on whether the women will still be at opposite sites from the men, whether everything will be doubleheaders, or whether the two will be disconnected to a greater or lesser extent?
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
Edited by dperry on 01-08-20 10:58 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-08-20 11:35 PM - Post#296292
In response to dperry
David,
The original Friday/Sunday proposal would have included one home game and one road game. It would not have been an elongated road trip.
I have heard that the women are in favor of playing more doubleheaders with the men, but I am not sure that the proposal mandates that result.
The Ivy tournament is not likely to be moved from Selection Sunday weekend. Apparently ESPN told the Ivy League that it was welcome to play its tournament any time it wanted, but if it was not on Selection Sunday weekend, ESPN would not televise it.
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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01-09-20 12:56 AM - Post#296295
In response to Stuart Suss
The original Friday/Sunday proposal would have included one home game and one road game. It would not have been an elongated road trip.
OK, that would have been a bit better, but on the weekends where the road game was a long trip, it would still have eaten up most of the weekend; you'd still be traveling much of Saturday (you might not have had the practice, though) and Sunday would still be mostly eaten up by the game either way. To me, it still makes much more sense to have at least the longer trips be either totally home or away.
The Ivy tournament is not likely to be moved from Selection Sunday weekend. Apparently ESPN told the Ivy League that it was welcome to play its tournament any time it wanted, but if it was not on Selection Sunday weekend, ESPN would not televise it.
OK, it is infuriatingly difficult to find a complete schedule for this year's conference tournaments this far ahead, so I'm just going to say to heck with it and look at what happened last year. There were four conferences that ended their tournaments the weekend before Selection Sunday: ASun, Big South, Missouri Valley, Ohio Valley. OK, the MVC and OVC are probably more important to ESPN than us, the other two not so much. Nine other tournaments were playing during that weekend; the most popular ones would have been the semifinals of the Horizon, Metro Atlantic, Patriot, and Southern, and either the quarters or semis of the West Coast.
Now, ESPN has what, five regular channels, plus online? Now, it does appear that several of the conferences listed above have their "networks" with ESPN as well, so I grant there is some conflict, but a.) you mean to tell me you can't make it work out, and b.) if someone's getting buried on the final weekend, why is it us and not, say, the Patriot, or the ASun? The only other major thing they're showing at that time of year is the NBA, and there can't be that many games. Frankly, given the ratings we're getting where we are now, they might as well not be televising us. Either we need to pay some other league off to swap places, or we need to get another TV network that respects us more than these guys.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 149
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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Check My Reasoning re: League Schedule
01-09-20 01:09 PM - Post#296302
In response to dperry
Back-to-backs and travel partners worked pretty well for 64 years.
The regular season Champion going straight to NCAA, or a tie-breaker game for the trip to the NCAA worked pretty well for 61 years.
The smallest Division 1 basketball league in America has no chance of claiming more than one NCAA position, unless the main draw is expanded to 128 teams.
So what's the Problem?
Tell ESPN to fill their Selection Sunday extravaganza with another league that wants to play in the worst rated time slot of the entire week.
Edited by Naismith on 01-09-20 01:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Check My Reasoning re: League Schedule
01-10-20 12:01 PM - Post#296334
In response to Naismith
The regular season Champion going straight to NCAA, or a tie-breaker game for the trip to the NCAA worked pretty well for 61 years.
Yale seemed pretty unhappy at the then-existing status quo in 2015...
Edited by Go Green on 01-10-20 12:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 149
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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Re: Check My Reasoning re: League Schedule
01-11-20 11:09 AM - Post#296501
In response to Go Green
So, what's the problem? Co-champions had a playoff on a neutral court and Harvard beat Yale at the Palestra.. Co-champions had a playoff in 2011 on a neutral court and Princeton beat Harvard in New Haven.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Check My Reasoning re: League Schedule
01-11-20 12:53 PM - Post#296505
In response to Naismith
So, what's the problem?
The problem was that a very good and deserving Yale team ended up sitting out the 2015 post-season entirely because Ivy procedures hadn't kept up with the times.
http://ivyhoopsonline.com/2015/03/15/yale-gets- snu...
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/03/17/mens- bas...
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/16/not e...
When Yale gets angry, changes happen. Not a coincidence that Ivy football instituted instant replay review the season after a missed call cost Yale an undefeated season.
https://www.nhregister.com/colleges/article/Is-i t-...
https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?21...
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