penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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ROY and POY
02-18-20 08:11 PM - Post#300592
In response to LocalTiger
I also saw Dudley play quite a bit.
AJ is a better all around talent. You can't teach height, so Dudley gets the nod there, but AJ is more versatile at both ends of the floor.
Also, Dudley never worked on fixing his primary weakness (FT%) even when moving on.
Edited by penn nation on 02-18-20 08:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-18-20 08:18 PM - Post#300595
In response to LocalTiger
AJ's stats this year are dramatically better than Lewis and Richmond, there is no rational comparison. Atkinson is behind AJ in every statistical category except scoring (PA is .5 ahead). Atkinson has a lead in FG% but he takes NO 3 pters. Bruner is ahead of Atkinson in 4 of the 7 categories and tied in a 5th.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-18-20 08:21 PM - Post#300596
In response to LocalTiger
The numbers speak more to Penn's roster and system than the quality of Brodeur's play.
Why do you say this? Is Mike Smith a product of the roster and system? Is Aiken? Matt Morgan last year? This argument doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe there is something I am missing?
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-18-20 08:48 PM - Post#300598
In response to PennFan10
Current IL stats for 2019-2020 (all games, not just IL games). All qualified players.
Points: AJ ranks 4th (5th in PPG)
2 pt FGS: 5th (4th in 2 pt%)
FTs made: Tied 4th (4th in FT%)
Rebounds: 2nd (and tied for #1 in RPG)
Assists: 3rd (and #1 in APG)
Assist/TO ratio: 2nd
Blocks: tied for 3rd (and #3 in BPG)
Steals: tied for 8th (tied for #7 in SPG)
Among those who have started at least half their games and played at least 20 min/game:
ORat: 6th
DRat: 8th
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: OY and POY
02-18-20 09:07 PM - Post#300600
In response to penn nation
Dudley, like many bigs, wasn't very good until his Senior year, Broduer has been good for 4.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: OY and POY
02-18-20 09:36 PM - Post#300603
In response to Old Bear
Dudley, like many bigs, wasn't very good until his Senior year, Broduer has been good for 4.
Here's how good--where AJ stands in Penn basketball history:
Points scored--3rd. Only 38 behind Ugonna in 2nd place. Ernie Beck, who scored 1,827 points in only 3 years, is currently 103 points ahead of AJ and the leader with 6 games to play in the regular season plus ?
Field goals made--1st. Topped Ernie Beck on Saturday night.
Rebounds--4th. The 3 players ahead of him are all from the 1950s (with Beck again at #1). 46 to go to tie for 3rd.
Games started--AJ has started every single one of the 113 games in which he has played. The Penn record of 115, currently held by Zach Rosen, will soon be broken.
Games played--Klatsky and Onyekwe currently hold the record at 118. If AJ plays all 6 of the remaining regular season games, this record will also be broken. Especially impressive given the relatively few number of games actually played by Penn this year.
Minutes played--4th. 67 minutes behind Begley (4th) and another 27 after than to catch MH Jordan (3rd). Another 18 to reach Eggleston (2nd), although Zach attack is beyond reach at #1.
Assists since 78-79--currently 7th. Everyone else on that list besides Paul Chambers (5th) is a guard. Clearly Wohl, Bilsky and Neuman among others would also have to be considered if those data were available. Currently 35 behind Klatsky for 6th and 44 behind Chambers for 5th.
Blocks--2nd. 9 more to catch Geoff Owens at #1.
Steals (since '81-'82)--14 more to catch Onyekwe at #10. Might not get there, but even the fact that he's this close shows his amazing versatility.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32810
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-18-20 09:37 PM - Post#300604
In response to PennFan10
Why does this issue even matter? All that matters is winning the title. If they give an award to someone else, that's fine. We all know that AJ is the greatest big man ever at Penn. That's all that matters.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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ROY and POY
02-18-20 09:47 PM - Post#300606
In response to LocalTiger
Not at the same level as Thomforde, Dudley, Mueller,
Goodrich.
Again, not sure he is better than Atkinson, Lewis or
aririgouzah.
So, yes, I think ludicrous is the word.
And I have seen him in person or on television at
least 10 times. A good player who makes the most of
His talent, bit not an elite all- timer.
I saw plenty of Mueller and even rooted hard for him against Georgetown. (Was with P38 at the old Casa Vecchia on Chestnut St. that night.). He was a great player. I saw loads of Goodrich including at Penn Charter and later tooling former hs teammate Tim Krug (who never worked very hard and only wanted to block shots, so he bit on every Goodrich pump fake) in several Penn-Princeton games. Dudley? No way. There was little in his game at Yale that would have predicted a long NBA career coming off the bench. He was big, immobile, and, well, big. Dudley’s teams never finished better than fourth place. I can’t comment on Thomforde who was before my time. Atkinson only has this season to really stake his claim, and I’m already on record as supporting him as Yale’s POY candidate and possibly the overall favorite. Aririguzoh sure outplayed AJ this year as Penn was coming off of a 30 day period with only a DIII game (Widener) and a game with the worst team in DI (Howard), but let’s wait until he’s a senior before assessing his career. I would love to see a rematch in the Ivy tournament.
AJ Brodeur has to be in the conversation for his overall body of work. He made a big impact as a freshman, was a key player in a championship season as a soph, finished second in POY last year, and is likely to be first team All-Ivy again this year. (He was a unanimous choice the past two seasons.) AJ has improved his game and added new wrinkles every year and is now a dependable, clutch foul shooter (an early weakness), the team’s best passer, and its most fiery competitor. Your “system†argument is ridiculous. What team doesn’t try to exploit its players’ strengths? To flat out dismiss him is flat out ludicrous.
To quote Andre the Giant from The Princess Bride,â€You keep using that word. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.â€
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-18-20 10:15 PM - Post#300609
In response to LyleGold
I did not flat out dismiss him. I said he was a good player
Who made the most of his ( limited) talent, and is probably
A contender for POY in a wide open year.
I simply said he is not one of the best ever in the League.
Those who reject Dudley can get back to me after AJ's
Long NBA career.
Richmond outplayed him four times in the last two years,
And he is a senior. Right now, I think he is the better player on the more successful team.
AJ can get credit from Penn for a lifetime achievement award,
And if he leads Penn to meaningful wins down the stretch,
Maybe he wins POY.
As others have been saying all year, the League is a bit down this year, and he is not clearly the best at his position, let
alone the best overall.
He is not the best big man ever in the Ickes, and really should not be in the conversation.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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ROY and POY
02-18-20 10:21 PM - Post#300610
In response to LocalTiger
Okay, I forgot Aririguzoh is a senior. That’s easy to do since he didn’t do anything for 2 1/2 years. He gives AJ matchup headaches, but doesn’t have the overall resume or as complete a game.
Oh, and saying that something is ludicrous is flat out dismissing it as ridiculous and laughable. That’s my main objection.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3775
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: OY and POY
02-18-20 10:32 PM - Post#300611
In response to LyleGold
To quote Andre the Giant from The Princess Bride,â€You keep using that word. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.â€
Isn't it Inigo Montoya who says that?
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: OY and POY
02-18-20 10:34 PM - Post#300612
In response to Silver Maple
You’re right. It’s inconceivable that Andre would have known it.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: OY and POY
02-18-20 10:35 PM - Post#300613
In response to Silver Maple
Funny. Mrs Nation and I actually saw Mandy perform in New Haven a couple of weeks ago, and that line came up.
TPB is her favorite movie. And Mandy's a quintessential Chicagoan. A perfect match. Even sang a Yiddish song during one of the encores.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-18-20 10:55 PM - Post#300615
In response to penn nation
The award is POYear. I think people are mixing topics.
I am not saying Richmond is an all- time great either.
I am saying that this year, he outplayed AJ twice, and that led to wins that matter this year. The fact that he did not play
Much is first two years is not relevant in the POY discussion.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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ROY and POY
02-18-20 11:02 PM - Post#300616
In response to LocalTiger
This thread may be ROY-POY, but the point of discussion was whether or not AJ is the best all time Ivy center. You dismissed the very suggestion as ludicrous, and now you’re claiming the topic is something else. Yes, Richmond’s late career development compared to AJ’s four years of increasing greatness is relevant to that discussion. Again, I am resigned to AJ probably not winning POY this year, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-18-20 11:22 PM - Post#300617
In response to LyleGold
Once more, slowly.
I think AJ is a plausible candidate for POY, but
right now, I think Richmond is at least equally plausible.
I think it is ludicrous to say either is the best center in the history of the Ivies.
The fact that AJ is not clearly the best center now ought to end that argument. He would be hopelessly over at he'd against
Other big men who dominated in their eras.
Sorry, I do think calling him the Ivy GOAT is the l word.
If you want to say best ever at Penn, I will leave that call
to others.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-18-20 11:31 PM - Post#300618
In response to LocalTiger
Having reviewed this thread, you are creating a straw man that no-one has uttered.
No one claimed that AJ was the best center the IL ever had.
What was claimed is that he has been one of the best.
And that he has been.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-18-20 11:39 PM - Post#300619
In response to penn nation
Let's just agree to disagree on that. I would not have him on the roster of an all- time team.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 430
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-18-20 11:43 PM - Post#300620
In response to LocalTiger
By the way, three posts up, I was reprimanded because " the point of discussion was whether AJ was the best of all time."
I don't think I created a straw man. I agree it should not have been claimed, but it was.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-18-20 11:46 PM - Post#300621
In response to LocalTiger
That's fine, but who then would be on your squad?
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