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Username Post: Empty Cathedral        (Topic#23948)
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
02-10-20 12:22 PM - Post#299381    

From today's DP:
https://www.thedp.com/article/2020/02/pales tra-pen...

This is just pathetic. The excuses the students come up with are so lame (it's too far, games are too long, I want to do something "more chill") that I just shake my head knowing that it's really that they just don't care. It's a totally different world at Penn, and the administration knows it and feels the same way.

By the way, nice shot of Scott Kegler in the photo with the yawning woman.

 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 23199

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
02-10-20 12:35 PM - Post#299386    
    In response to LyleGold

Looks like Kegler's been hitting the keg a bit.

 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
Empty Cathedral
02-10-20 12:42 PM - Post#299392    
    In response to 10Q

Sorry, I didn't mean he was the guy WITH the yawning woman. He's on the other side of the photo wearing a light blue dress shirt looking like he's still in shape.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21085

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Empty Cathedral
02-10-20 12:57 PM - Post#299398    
    In response to LyleGold

It's not just that the student body has changed.

The Penn administration and Athletics Department have also changed. Little to no support for the Penn Band and cheerleaders to be able to attend road games, which used to be a given. Heck, even during some home games during breaks we're now force fed canned music and outside entertainment in lieu of Penn student body participation. Fewer and fewer scheduled home games. No more Palestra doubleheaders. The big calling card--Penn-Princeton, more often than not scheduled in recent years when students are on break. Do they even have "Penn Pride" games anymore where students can attend for free? No way to see the games on regular TV without having to pay. Heck, no regular radio (WXPN), either.

Edited by penn nation on 02-10-20 12:59 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 12480

Reg: 12-07-04
02-10-20 01:15 PM - Post#299405    
    In response to penn nation

To be honest, I've been encouraged by the student support this year. These other Ivies seem to only get support from their football teams, although Yale seemed to bring them out for the Harvard game.

 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
Empty Cathedral
02-10-20 02:14 PM - Post#299409    
    In response to Quakers03

Really? I don't know what could possibly be encouraging about it when nobody's there. There were good turnouts for St. Joe's and Temple, but that was mostly their fans. The Harvard game might be the only glimmer of hope so far. Even your time, '03, which was a mere shadow of what it was in the Chuck Daly-Bob Weinhauer era, was much better than it is now. There was palpable excitement on campus the day of a Big 5 or Princeton game and Locust Walk/College Green was filled with a procession of students steaming to the Palestra. The stands were packed with students long before game time chanting Let's Go Quakers and passing out streamers in anticipation of the first basket. The majority of fans were students, and it got especially intense when both student bodies traded barbs and off-color rollouts. There was a resurgence in the mid-90s during the Allen-Maloney days, but those students mostly were there for Rock 'n Roll pt.II so they could scream,"You suck!" repeatedly. In those days, after the renovation of the late 80s when the seat backs were installed, the side stands were sold out to alumni while the Penn students were mostly behind the west basket. When I was a student, the side stands were easily half-filled with students as well. Sometimes the crowds peaked during the first half of the nightcap of double headers when Big 5 fans stuck around to watch part of the Penn Ivy game.

 
HARVARDDADGRAD 
Postdoc
Posts: 2685

Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
Empty Cathedral
02-10-20 02:22 PM - Post#299411    
    In response to LyleGold

Spectating isn't something that our respective admissions offices value. Hard to be a driven achiever/overachiever and make time for two basketball games on a weekend, much less plays, lectures, volunteering, etc. Also, interests of global applicant pool changes things. It's just not the same any more and it isn't going to be except for when a game warrants becoming a campus social event like "The Game." Always felt that attendance for Tournament at Palestra was aided by the fact that Sunday final coincides with students returning to campus after break. Nothing else going on.

My recently graduated Harvard son loves basketball and plays when he can. However, over his 4 years in Cambridge (H18), I attended more games from NJ than he did from his River House. Too much going on (and GF who didn't get basketball).

Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 02-10-20 02:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 12480

Reg: 12-07-04
Re: Empty Cathedral
02-10-20 02:50 PM - Post#299417    
    In response to LyleGold

I am strictly comparing it to the Miller years and beyond. Of course the good old days aren't coming back. I sit in the same seat now that I sat in for 2 years as a student because demand was so high. As for this season, I didn't expect to see nearly as many students as I did for those Big 5 games and Harvard. We'll see what next weekend brings.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21085

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Empty Cathedral
02-10-20 03:08 PM - Post#299423    
    In response to HARVARDDADGRAD

Basketball and the venue are much much more significant part of the history and culture of Penn than at any other Ivy league team.

Again, the IL itself is complicit here amongst the other administrative entities by devaluing the most traditional rivalry, something it would not dare do with "The Game".

Edited by penn nation on 02-10-20 03:09 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
welcometothejungle 
Masters Student
Posts: 788

Age: 27
Reg: 07-31-19
02-10-20 03:37 PM - Post#299434    
    In response to penn nation

Chiming in here with a recent Princeton grad's perspective, Yale usually gets a pretty solid student section from what I've seen. Princeton can only get a good student section when it's playing Harvard or Yale (since Penn games are during break) and the other athletic teams come out in big numbers (football, volleyball, etc). Princeton Athletics has done a good job of ensuring those teams come in recent years by honoring Ivy League championship teams from the fall at halftime of basketball games, so entire fall sport teams come for at least a half of the game, and many end up just staying the whole time.

From what I saw at Princeton, the lack of general student attendance wasn't because of a lack of interest in the basketball team, just generally packed schedules and basketball games being low on the priority list. I knew tons of students who followed the team, were interested in how games went, but barely attended any games because they had other stuff going on on Fridays and Saturdays. I'm curious to see how next season's Ivy schedule affects student attendance, if at all. Maybe afternoon games on Saturdays could be more attractive to students than a 7pm start time, who knows

 
rbg 
Postdoc
Posts: 3044

Reg: 10-20-14
02-10-20 05:49 PM - Post#299458    
    In response to welcometothejungle

It's a perplexing situation.

I've had a couple of younger family members at Cornell, Columbia and Penn over the last few years and they went to very few sporting events, no matter how many reminders I sent along.

The ones they did go to were usually "event" games like Family Weekend/Homecoming for football or a Harvard/Cornell hockey game. Basketball was pretty much a no for all of them.

Of the games they actually attended, they left well before the end.

While there may be a different type of student attending these schools than years past or there could be more extracurricular things on their schedules, I wonder how much the internet has to do with the declining attendance.

Students now can get a huge number of movies, tv shows and games (pros/high major college) anytime without leaving their rooms. As such, they may not be interested in driving or walking nearby to catch a mid-major game in person, especially one they don't see as relevant.

While many on this list would probably categorize the Ivy games as "events" worthy of the travel, many students don't seem to be convinced. Hopefully, continued high quality games and chances to be a part of the postseason will improve the numbers.



 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
02-10-20 06:30 PM - Post#299466    
    In response to rbg

I think this article just re-hashes something we have discussed here for years. I really believe in 10-15 years after we who remember when sports mattered all die off, Penn - and maybe all the Ivies - will face a choice: They can join a major conference (really only an option for the larger schools who have or can build arenas) and play by Duke/Stanford/Northwester n rules. Alternatively, they go the route of Johns Hopkins (ex Lax), Wash. U, U. Chicago, etc. and get out of D-1 altogether.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21085

Reg: 12-02-04
02-10-20 07:14 PM - Post#299469    
    In response to Streamers

If true, that would be ironic given we now have any number of Ivy teams--and perhaps a record number--that can give all but a handful of DI schools some real trouble in a basketball game.

  • Streamers Said:
I think this article just re-hashes something we have discussed here for years. I really believe in 10-15 years after we who remember when sports mattered all die off, Penn - and maybe all the Ivies - will face a choice: They can join a major conference (really only an option for the larger schools who have or can build arenas) and play by Duke/Stanford/Northwester n rules. Alternatively, they go the route of Johns Hopkins (ex Lax), Wash. U, U. Chicago, etc. and get out of D-1 altogether.




 
Quakers03 
Professor
Posts: 12480

Reg: 12-07-04
02-10-20 08:44 PM - Post#299477    
    In response to penn nation

Well, attendance for senior night just went down as it seems there will not be an alumni volunteer night this year. Pretty disgraceful if you ask me. Par for the course, however.

 
OldBig5 
Masters Student
Posts: 639

Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
02-10-20 09:21 PM - Post#299482    
    In response to Quakers03

It's a shame because college basketball is still quite a student cool thing at so many schools. Even outside the power five conferences.

 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
02-10-20 11:47 PM - Post#299491    
    In response to OldBig5

Amazingly, the Yale Daily News wrote a similar article a couple of weeks ago:
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2020/01/28/mens- bas...

The funny thing is the graph of Ivy attendance that shows Penn’s home crowds in the Empty Cathedral more than doubling the next closest school, Princeton (4724-1860). Yale is dead last at 914. I really question the Palestra being 55% full for an average home game. It seems much less than that to me.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21085

Reg: 12-02-04
02-10-20 11:54 PM - Post#299492    
    In response to LyleGold

There have only been 7 home games this year. So having 6,000 + for the St Joe's and Temple games (many of them visiting fans) does indeed make the numbers look better than what they would actually look like with a fuller home slate.

  • LyleGold Said:
Amazingly, the Yale Daily News wrote a similar article a couple of weeks ago:
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2020/01/28/mens- bas...

The funny thing is the graph of Ivy attendance that shows Penn’s home crowds in the Empty Cathedral more than doubling the next closest school, Princeton (4724-1860). Yale is dead last at 914. I really question the Palestra being 55% full for an average home game. It seems much less than that to me.




 
LyleGold 
PhD Student
Posts: 1712

Reg: 11-22-04
02-11-20 12:07 AM - Post#299494    
    In response to penn nation

Good point. Those of us who have rarely missed a home game for decades can see the trend with our own eyes. Yet another effect of the meager home slate (3 fewer games at the same season ticket price as last year) is that the mandatory Big 5 schedule creates the illusion of decent “Penn” home attendance.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21085

Reg: 12-02-04
Empty Cathedral
02-11-20 12:27 AM - Post#299495    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
There have only been 7 home games this year




LaSalle 2426
Widener 2117 (during student break)
Princeton 3788 (during student break)
St Joe's 6266
Temple 6524
Harvard 3146
Dartmouth 3017

By my calculation, that's only an average of 3,897.7 per game. Still leads the Ivy by a ton, but the staffers at Yale need a remedial math course.

Edited by penn nation on 02-11-20 12:33 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32683

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Empty Cathedral
02-11-20 07:32 AM - Post#299504    
    In response to penn nation

They probably count Widener as an exhibition

 
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