SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-01-20 01:08 PM - Post#302559
In response to LyleGold
I don’t think that’s necessarily true about playing another minute. A press is usually like pulling the goalie. There’s a reason you don’t see it for long periods. Yes, Yale was successful with it for longer (and more completely) than I can ever recall seeing, but that doesn’t mean it was possible to do in perpetuity, or even for another minute. Often with the press, once you figure it out, you figure it out.
In addition, the game wasn’t another minute. They began pressing when they did. If just about anything had gone differently, we win. If Eddie hits the foul shot. If they call a foul on one of the plays where the ball was wrestled away from Betley, or when Goodman lost the ball. If they called a foul on Monroe. If lucas’ pass was 6 inches shorter and AJ had more time, or if Eric Monroe doesn’t block AJ’s shot without looking. Heck, if AJ just tossed the ball back into the court rather than trying to score, we might have had a different result. We literally had to do everything wrong while they did everything right, while all the calls went their way. That’s not to say any of the calls were wrong, just that they let them play there when sometimes they don’t. We were just one play from winning that game, even doing all that wrong.
Final point on press breaks. By definition, you are likely to take on some water, because usually you are in a situation where in essence one team is trying to score more than the other is. That’s ok, because the clock is your friend. So I think you are almost always going to have the impression that it wasn’t handled perfectly.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21340
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-01-20 01:10 PM - Post#302560
In response to SomeGuy
Yes, Yale was successful with it for longer (and more completely) than I can ever recall seeing, but that doesn’t mean it was possible to do in perpetuity, or even for another minute. Often with the press, once you figure it out, you figure it out.
One giant exception to the rule: our women's team in the NCAAs. That was painful to watch.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8368
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-01-20 01:10 PM - Post#302561
In response to LyleGold
I agree that those three guys were keys last night, and I praised Steve for having them in there along with Martz
Did I miss it or has no one credited Martz for hitting the dagger 3 with 1:10 left to extend the lead to 8? A joy to watch him take that with confidence in that spot. Sure had me thinking good thoughts at that point.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-01-20 01:18 PM - Post#302562
In response to 13otto
Right, that was the much debated reversal when the refs refused to recognize that they missed the foul call and gave the ball to Yale. We did a good job on that play because we inbounded the ball from the sideline and not from under the basket like all the other times. Monroe’s pass to A.J. was a little high, but he caught it cleanly and could have secured it with a one point lead instead of trying to finish. Dev was standing right next to him wide open. Nonetheless, AJ should have gone to the line on that play.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-01-20 05:29 PM - Post#302603
In response to LyleGold
While I liked the lineup that finished the Brown game, I don’t want to suggest that Betley was a net negative or that the key was removing him from the game. Even with the bad shooting games and the turnovers for Betley, we did play what was probably our best weekend of the Ivy season on the road against what is the toughest back to back that we play. Ryan should get some credit for that. Could be a coincidence, could be an emotional lift, could be that he opens things up for other guys even when he is missing. Regardless, we win and lose as a team, and what we did over the weekend was pretty darn impressive, but for a lousy 100 seconds.
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-01-20 10:01 PM - Post#302639
In response to SomeGuy
Sure whatever you say. I have no double standard like so many others here. I'll do it for you. Betley was a net negative and for a bunch so beholden to your precious analytics, it's beyond disingenuous for someone to imply otherwise. Betley had a nice run prior to his injury. He's been a shell of that since returning. His latest setback has made that all the more clear.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-01-20 11:18 PM - Post#302642
In response to Buckeye Quake
Not sure what the double standard is here. I think I’m pretty consistent. I may have a sunnier outlook than you do, but I’m not sure why that’s a bad thing. You seem to have a problem with positivity. I’m a fan. Not sure exactly why saying something nice about a kid is the equivalent of a ball rolling onto your lawn.
Since you have a single standard, I guess I’d like to hear exactly what it is. You seem bothered that somebody (not me) once said something negative about Jordan Dingle. One idea, if that bothers you, is not to pick on somebody (me) who is generally defending kids when someone says something negative. It seems to me more than a little unfair to accuse an individual of being disingenuous based upon what seems to be your perception of the behavior of a group of people (I guess people who find statistics interesting?).
The fact that you disappeared for a year when the team was doing really well and decided to come back when it fit your narrative says a lot.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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@ Brown
03-02-20 02:14 AM - Post#302647
In response to SomeGuy
Me, I’m surprised there wasn’t more praise for Donahue from certain quarters when he benched Betley for the bulk of the second half in this game, after the latter had struggled so much in his previous game + a half coming back from injury.
The most seniory thing Betley did this weekend was show the less experienced guys the value of committing to hard cuts. There was a lot less standing around watching Brodeur and a lot more activity around him than there was the previous weekend—Martz, Jones, Monroe, and Dingle all took a lesson in body and ball movement. Sometimes to a fault—at least twice after he got inside the restricted area Martz attempted an extra pass in close quarters that was much too hard, resulting in two unforced turnovers.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 03-02-20 02:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32947
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: @ Brown
03-02-20 09:18 AM - Post#302653
In response to Chip Bayers
I don't know if you are referring to me, but I never criticized Donahue for playing Betley--I just observed that we might be better off with the freshmen given that Betley's play is so affected by his injuries. I also observed that Betley does serve as a valuable decoy---he draws coverage making it more difficult to double AJ.
Nonetheless--the freshmen are stepping up at the key moment. I think Donahue is doing a very very good job with the cards he has been dealt this year.
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Kwaequer
Postdoc
Posts: 3084
Age: 43
Reg: 12-20-15
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03-02-20 10:35 AM - Post#302661
In response to palestra38
To Betley. Or not to Betley.
That is the question.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 780
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-02-20 05:30 PM - Post#302736
In response to Kwaequer
Just because Ryan is not one of the five guys I want on the court in the final two minutes, when trying to break Yale's full-court press, doesn't mean he's not very valuable to this team. He could be very valuable as our sixth man. Or when someone gets into foul trouble and he needs to play extended minutes. Ryan still is one of the guys we need in our 8-man rotation, so you need to look at his value as compared to who would take his minutes (if Ryan was not available) in the 8-man rotation. He might not be 100%, and may need to play a different role, but we are not nearly as good without him being available.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-02-20 05:45 PM - Post#302739
In response to 13otto
He is still a guy you want on the floor at the end if you have to make FT's, which is why he was out there against Yale.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 780
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-02-20 06:02 PM - Post#302742
In response to PennFan10
He is still a guy you want on the floor at the end if you have to make FT's, which is why he was out there against Yale.
We will have to agree to disagree on that. We were in a similar situation against Brown the next night, but had the five guys I wanted on the floor at the end of the game. And fortunately, Coach Donahue apparently agreed with my thinking.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-02-20 06:05 PM - Post#302744
In response to 13otto
Good thing he asked you I suppose.
I would bet you a lot of money that if we get into a definitive FT situation this weekend or later Ryan will be on the floor.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-02-20 06:16 PM - Post#302748
In response to PennFan10
Good thing he asked you I suppose.
I would bet you a lot of money that if we get into a definitive FT situation this weekend or later Ryan will be on the floor.
But the problem is that Ryan’s way of getting to the line is to catch a pass and hold onto the ball. That’s how we lost the Yale game.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2703
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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@ Brown
03-02-20 06:20 PM - Post#302750
In response to LyleGold
I remember when Amaker used an injured Aiken at Brown to catch the inbounds pass, get fouled, and shoot FT's. I watched the ending of the Yale game and, sadly, that's what Betley was looking to do. He couldn't explode to catch a pass nor did he want to dribble through the double team. Really limited you guys with Brodeur, Betley and possibly others who couldn't bring the ball up the court against intense pressure. Yale sensed it and pounced.
Edited by HARVARDDADGRAD on 03-02-20 06:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-02-20 06:20 PM - Post#302751
In response to LyleGold
As opposed to throwing it to the other team, dribbling into 3 defenders, or letting a 5 foot nothing guard block your 6-9 forward's shot? I am sure the coaches will take your suggestions.
Again, I would bet a lot of money Ryan will be out there in an end of game FT situation.
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westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts: 196
Age: 43
Reg: 01-08-11
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03-02-20 08:47 PM - Post#302775
In response to PennFan10
I think the whole problem was that when Ryan got the ball nobody told Yale that it was a "definitive FT situation".
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-02-20 11:08 PM - Post#302786
In response to LyleGold
Isn’t that what most teams do in that situation, though? Get it to their best shooter and take the foul? I don’t think there is much nuance. Bryce Aiken doesn’t give up the ball in that situation, either. If Betley had passed the ball to somebody else who had then missed the free throws, and we had lost that way, I suspect one of the narratives would have been why on earth did our senior shooter give up the ball and let somebody else get fouled.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4371
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-03-20 06:21 AM - Post#302792
In response to SomeGuy
Sort of- but most teams don’t run inbounds plays where the ball is passed to someone who is standing a foot from the baseline who then is easily trapped by a double team with no second pass option available.
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