Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-11-20 10:16 AM - Post#304180
Easily the most gifted offensive player in the IL, and by far the leader in points scored, Smith was relegated to second team status. I for one think it is an outrage. Every opposing coach double and triple teamed him and yet he still led the league. Just disgraceful and small minded; if anything it shows a deep seated anti-Columbia bias on the part of at least some of the other coaches. If he was only a second teamed why was your entire game plan directed toward doubling and tripling him?
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-11-20 10:20 AM - Post#304181
In response to Chet Forte
https://ivyleague.com/news/2020/3/10/ivy-le ague-ha...
Smith 2nd team
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1146
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Smith
03-11-20 11:53 AM - Post#304207
In response to Chet Forte
Easily the most gifted offensive player in the IL, and by far the leader in points scored, Smith was relegated to second team status. I for one think it is an outrage. Every opposing coach double and triple teamed him and yet he still led the league. Just disgraceful and small minded; if anything it shows a deep seated anti-Columbia bias on the part of at least some of the other coaches. If he was only a second teamed why was your entire game plan directed toward doubling and tripling him?
Chris Knight can make a lot of the same arguments.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-11-20 12:23 PM - Post#304214
In response to Go Green
Knight is an excellent player, to be sure. But Smith was a one man scoring machine in circumstances in which he was double and triple teamed all year and still led the league in scoring by far.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-11-20 12:58 PM - Post#304221
In response to Chet Forte
There were some good selections, and some bad ones. Clearly, the league was having a bad day in many ways when it had its calls.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Smith
03-11-20 02:24 PM - Post#304243
In response to Chet Forte
I don’t think there is an anti-Columbia or anti-Smith bias. The league has fairly routinely left high scorers off the All-Ivy first team when the team doesn’t win. In fact, among the last 7 players to average 20 points per game in conference, 5 of them did not make first team. (Boudreaux and Morgan both averaged 20 twice and were 2nd team, and now Smith).
It also has been a while since a player whose team wasn’t either .500 or in the Ivy tourney made first team. The last one was Brown’s Steven Spieth. And his team won 4.
So I don’t think Smith is getting treated differently.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-11-20 03:27 PM - Post#304256
In response to SomeGuy
This was actually a travesty: Smith led the league in scoring at 24.4 PPG, 6 PPG more than the runner up. He led the league in steals at 2 PG. He led the league in minutes played. And finally he was second in assists at 4.3 per game.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-11-20 04:15 PM - Post#304271
In response to Chet Forte
The runner up didn’t even get H M.
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HGA
Sophomore
Posts: 106
Loc: New York
Reg: 10-16-18
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03-11-20 05:26 PM - Post#304303
In response to Old Bear
Agree that Smith got robbed! For Yale to get 3 1st team selections, CoY, and co Defensive PoY is truly a refection of too much respect for a 10-3 team.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-11-20 07:38 PM - Post#304325
In response to HGA
I think the coaches, who have watched hours of film, may have a better perspective than I do.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2175
Reg: 02-14-06
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03-11-20 07:50 PM - Post#304328
In response to Old Bear
Does Engles owe his job to Mike Smith for keeping the scores respectable this season?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-11-20 11:05 PM - Post#304353
In response to Chet Forte
My point is just that it isn’t unusual. Boudreaux averaged more than 20 ppg in conference and led the league in rebounding by about 3 per game. He averaged a double double, and still only made second team. And his team was in it until the final weekend. It may be a travesty, but it isn’t a Smith or Columbia specific travesty. This is how these votes go.
I didn’t get everything right in my predictions, but I did predict Yale would get 3, and that Smith and Anderson wouldn’t make first team. Obviously there is a statistical argument for Smith. But I think coaches are more interested in wins and losses, and they value that more than who has the best individual stats, even when evaluating individual players.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-12-20 12:49 PM - Post#304425
In response to SomeGuy
How do you think James Jones voted when it came to Smith. Just asking.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-12-20 03:06 PM - Post#304461
In response to Chet Forte
I have no idea how Jones votes. Given the way that the voting went overall, I could see how he might favor the Harvard and Penn guys who beat Yale. Or the Princeton and Cornell kids who came very close. The argument against Smith for Jones just based on the Yale games would be that neither game was close, and in the second game Smith only went off when the game was already out of hand (25 points in the second half when Columbia was already down 20). Smith actually didn’t play very well when the game was being lost in the first half — he had a stretch where he made 1 of 7 shots and turned it over 3 times as Columbia fell behind by 20.
But that’s just the argument against Smith (there’s an argument against everyone in the league except maybe Atkinson). It is also quite possible that Jones voted for Smith.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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 03-12-20 09:53 PM - Post#304507
In response to SomeGuy
I do not think that 25 points in the second half against Yale were a result of anything other than massive talent and a refusal to mail it in against a better team. Mike Smith is a warrior; he was mugged all season and never lost his willingness to drive into the paint.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-12-20 10:24 PM - Post#304508
In response to Chet Forte
Certainly a positive to not give up, and 25 points in a half is hard to do. With a big lead, though, Jones may have been perfectly happy to trade baskets, and may not have been particularly concerned about who was doing the scoring against them. I agree that it was a warrior effort among many warrior efforts for Smith, but I tend to value who wins games, and the coaches seem to agree. That may not be fair to Smith, of course.
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PeteD
Masters Student
Posts: 556
Loc: California
Reg: 03-13-07
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03-13-20 06:06 AM - Post#304514
In response to SomeGuy
I thought Choh, Knight and Llewellyn all deserved a first team nod over Kirkwood.
Smith on the 2nd team is right. Sorry, but hard to justify putting a guy on the 1st team when his team goes 1-13. He had chances to give his team a couple more wins, but didn’t get it done.
Brandon Anderson not even getting HM is shocking.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-14-20 07:50 AM - Post#304595
In response to PeteD
Playing an average of 39 minutes a night sometimes means you have nothing left in crunch time. But I still believe that leading the league in scoring by 6 PPG, leading in steals, second in assists, and doing all of this despite being double and triple teamed and routinely mugged in the paint is dispositive —he deserved not only first team but a unanimous vote.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-20 03:17 PM - Post#304814
In response to Chet Forte
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/ univers...
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-20 10:11 PM - Post#304827
In response to internetter
Phil Martelli (former St Joes Coach) is on the staff at Michigan. He and Donahue are close and likely have talked about Smith and Aiken.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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03-18-20 10:27 PM - Post#304829
In response to PennFan10
Would be pretty damn funny to see Smith and Aiken playing together for Michigan.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-18-20 10:49 PM - Post#304831
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
With Towns?
Gotta think home town Ohio State has the inside track on Seth, although I read Duke is coming on down the stretch.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-18-20 11:21 PM - Post#304832
In response to PennFan10
And Howard’s son played at Brown against both guys.
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Billy Hoyle
Freshman
Posts: 82
Age: 50
Loc: Roar-ee's Lair
Reg: 12-17-14
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03-19-20 12:24 PM - Post#304864
In response to SomeGuy
And Howard’s son played at Brown against both guys.
That probably isn't much help, Howard had children with multiple women. The son at Brown didn't grow up with his dad. We'll see.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-19-20 01:06 PM - Post#304875
In response to Billy Hoyle
Didn’t Juwan show up at some of Joshua’s games, though? He may not have grown up with him, but it’s not like Donahue grew up with Martelli, either.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-19-20 01:52 PM - Post#304886
In response to SomeGuy
I think he came to one when the Heat were in Boston. I doubt that their schedules coincided very often.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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04-10-20 12:13 PM - Post#306105
In response to Old Bear
Michigan it is:
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1 248641647...
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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04-10-20 05:02 PM - Post#306121
In response to PennFan10
Guess we'll finally get to see Mike and Seth on the court at the same time! Bryce vs Mike would have been interesting as well.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2175
Reg: 02-14-06
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04-10-20 09:16 PM - Post#306124
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
Not easy to lose one senior to Duke and another senior to Michigan, but Coach Engles accomplished that feat off a 1-13 season.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2138
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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04-11-20 01:51 AM - Post#306127
In response to Columbia 37P6
Not easy to lose one senior to Duke and another senior to Michigan, but Coach Engles accomplished that feat off a 1-13 season.
If they'd both played, there's a good chance CU wouldn't have been 1-13.
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Billy Hoyle
Freshman
Posts: 82
Age: 50
Loc: Roar-ee's Lair
Reg: 12-17-14
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04-14-20 08:58 PM - Post#306238
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Not easy to lose one senior to Duke and another senior to Michigan, but Coach Engles accomplished that feat off a 1-13 season.
If they'd both played, there's a good chance CU wouldn't have been 1-13.
you and your facts...
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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04-16-20 06:10 PM - Post#306289
In response to Billy Hoyle
Tape, Smith and Stefanini would have been the best team in the league if all three would have played up to their potential.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2972
Reg: 03-02-08
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04-16-20 06:10 PM - Post#306290
In response to Chet Forte
Meant best threesome in the league.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-16-20 07:06 PM - Post#306291
In response to Chet Forte
Those three are very, very good players, but I’m not sure they were the best top three in the league even among those that played (Swain, Bruner, Atkinson) and certainly weren’t among the top three that could have played (Aiken, Towns, Lewis/Kirkwood). General point is well taken, though (as the grad offers have shown).
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3994
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-16-20 07:27 PM - Post#306292
In response to mrjames
Cambridge, Choh and Anderson. I'm sure Penn might have answer too.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2138
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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04-16-20 08:07 PM - Post#306293
In response to Old Bear
Cambridge, Choh and Anderson. I'm sure Penn might have answer too.
Brodeur, a fully healthy Betley and a fully healthy Wang.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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04-16-20 10:42 PM - Post#306296
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Had everyone been healthy, this would have been a great year.
Of course, with Harvard a possible top 50 team and Columbia& Penn possible top 100 teams, and of course Yale, the truncated ending to the season would have been all the more tragic.
In my estimation, a team of Ivy grad transfers would likely destroy next season’s all Ivy squad.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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04-17-20 12:24 AM - Post#306298
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Yes, I’d even sub Goodman for Wang. May have just been a matchup thing, but Goodman was the better player going head to head with Smith.
I’d take Princeton’s top 3 (Llewelyn, Aririgozuh, Schweiger) over Columbia’s guys as well.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2138
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Smith
04-17-20 06:12 AM - Post#306301
In response to SomeGuy
Yes, I’d even sub Goodman for Wang. May have just been a matchup thing, but Goodman was the better player going head to head with Smith.
I’d take Princeton’s top 3 (Llewelyn, Aririgozuh, Schweiger) over Columbia’s guys as well.
SG, I thought about whether or not to give Goodman the nod there, too. I was at the breakout game at CU where Dev hounded Smith into a rough night while dropping 23 points of his own.
I went with Wang because his combination of size and skill is a game changer when he's healthy.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 04-17-20 06:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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