Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2968
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-11-20 10:16 AM - Post#304180
Easily the most gifted offensive player in the IL, and by far the leader in points scored, Smith was relegated to second team status. I for one think it is an outrage. Every opposing coach double and triple teamed him and yet he still led the league. Just disgraceful and small minded; if anything it shows a deep seated anti-Columbia bias on the part of at least some of the other coaches. If he was only a second teamed why was your entire game plan directed toward doubling and tripling him?
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-11-20 10:20 AM - Post#304181
In response to Chet Forte
https://ivyleague.com/news/2020/3/10/ivy-le ague-ha...
Smith 2nd team
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1145
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Smith
03-11-20 11:53 AM - Post#304207
In response to Chet Forte
Easily the most gifted offensive player in the IL, and by far the leader in points scored, Smith was relegated to second team status. I for one think it is an outrage. Every opposing coach double and triple teamed him and yet he still led the league. Just disgraceful and small minded; if anything it shows a deep seated anti-Columbia bias on the part of at least some of the other coaches. If he was only a second teamed why was your entire game plan directed toward doubling and tripling him?
Chris Knight can make a lot of the same arguments.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2968
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-11-20 12:23 PM - Post#304214
In response to Go Green
Knight is an excellent player, to be sure. But Smith was a one man scoring machine in circumstances in which he was double and triple teamed all year and still led the league in scoring by far.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-11-20 12:58 PM - Post#304221
In response to Chet Forte
There were some good selections, and some bad ones. Clearly, the league was having a bad day in many ways when it had its calls.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Smith
03-11-20 02:24 PM - Post#304243
In response to Chet Forte
I don’t think there is an anti-Columbia or anti-Smith bias. The league has fairly routinely left high scorers off the All-Ivy first team when the team doesn’t win. In fact, among the last 7 players to average 20 points per game in conference, 5 of them did not make first team. (Boudreaux and Morgan both averaged 20 twice and were 2nd team, and now Smith).
It also has been a while since a player whose team wasn’t either .500 or in the Ivy tourney made first team. The last one was Brown’s Steven Spieth. And his team won 4.
So I don’t think Smith is getting treated differently.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2968
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-11-20 03:27 PM - Post#304256
In response to SomeGuy
This was actually a travesty: Smith led the league in scoring at 24.4 PPG, 6 PPG more than the runner up. He led the league in steals at 2 PG. He led the league in minutes played. And finally he was second in assists at 4.3 per game.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-11-20 04:15 PM - Post#304271
In response to Chet Forte
The runner up didn’t even get H M.
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HGA
Sophomore
Posts: 106
Loc: New York
Reg: 10-16-18
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03-11-20 05:26 PM - Post#304303
In response to Old Bear
Agree that Smith got robbed! For Yale to get 3 1st team selections, CoY, and co Defensive PoY is truly a refection of too much respect for a 10-3 team.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3992
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-11-20 07:38 PM - Post#304325
In response to HGA
I think the coaches, who have watched hours of film, may have a better perspective than I do.
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Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2173
Reg: 02-14-06
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03-11-20 07:50 PM - Post#304328
In response to Old Bear
Does Engles owe his job to Mike Smith for keeping the scores respectable this season?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-11-20 11:05 PM - Post#304353
In response to Chet Forte
My point is just that it isn’t unusual. Boudreaux averaged more than 20 ppg in conference and led the league in rebounding by about 3 per game. He averaged a double double, and still only made second team. And his team was in it until the final weekend. It may be a travesty, but it isn’t a Smith or Columbia specific travesty. This is how these votes go.
I didn’t get everything right in my predictions, but I did predict Yale would get 3, and that Smith and Anderson wouldn’t make first team. Obviously there is a statistical argument for Smith. But I think coaches are more interested in wins and losses, and they value that more than who has the best individual stats, even when evaluating individual players.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2968
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-12-20 12:49 PM - Post#304425
In response to SomeGuy
How do you think James Jones voted when it came to Smith. Just asking.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-12-20 03:06 PM - Post#304461
In response to Chet Forte
I have no idea how Jones votes. Given the way that the voting went overall, I could see how he might favor the Harvard and Penn guys who beat Yale. Or the Princeton and Cornell kids who came very close. The argument against Smith for Jones just based on the Yale games would be that neither game was close, and in the second game Smith only went off when the game was already out of hand (25 points in the second half when Columbia was already down 20). Smith actually didn’t play very well when the game was being lost in the first half — he had a stretch where he made 1 of 7 shots and turned it over 3 times as Columbia fell behind by 20.
But that’s just the argument against Smith (there’s an argument against everyone in the league except maybe Atkinson). It is also quite possible that Jones voted for Smith.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2968
Reg: 03-02-08
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 03-12-20 09:53 PM - Post#304507
In response to SomeGuy
I do not think that 25 points in the second half against Yale were a result of anything other than massive talent and a refusal to mail it in against a better team. Mike Smith is a warrior; he was mugged all season and never lost his willingness to drive into the paint.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-12-20 10:24 PM - Post#304508
In response to Chet Forte
Certainly a positive to not give up, and 25 points in a half is hard to do. With a big lead, though, Jones may have been perfectly happy to trade baskets, and may not have been particularly concerned about who was doing the scoring against them. I agree that it was a warrior effort among many warrior efforts for Smith, but I tend to value who wins games, and the coaches seem to agree. That may not be fair to Smith, of course.
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PeteD
Masters Student
Posts: 556
Loc: California
Reg: 03-13-07
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03-13-20 06:06 AM - Post#304514
In response to SomeGuy
I thought Choh, Knight and Llewellyn all deserved a first team nod over Kirkwood.
Smith on the 2nd team is right. Sorry, but hard to justify putting a guy on the 1st team when his team goes 1-13. He had chances to give his team a couple more wins, but didn’t get it done.
Brandon Anderson not even getting HM is shocking.
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Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2968
Reg: 03-02-08
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03-14-20 07:50 AM - Post#304595
In response to PeteD
Playing an average of 39 minutes a night sometimes means you have nothing left in crunch time. But I still believe that leading the league in scoring by 6 PPG, leading in steals, second in assists, and doing all of this despite being double and triple teamed and routinely mugged in the paint is dispositive —he deserved not only first team but a unanimous vote.
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internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-18-20 03:17 PM - Post#304814
In response to Chet Forte
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/ univers...
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-18-20 10:11 PM - Post#304827
In response to internetter
Phil Martelli (former St Joes Coach) is on the staff at Michigan. He and Donahue are close and likely have talked about Smith and Aiken.
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